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>they like editing Word documents LibreOffice supports this and it works quite well. I would guess most people prefer google drive these days, though. >using

>they like editing Word documents LibreOffice supports this and it works quite well. I would guess most people prefer google drive these days, though. >using Bluetooth Do you actually know anyone non-technical who has used bluetooth at all in the past 5 years? Or technical for that matter, I've used bluetooth maybe 3 times in that time frame and always had no issues on Linux. >playing AAA games This is your only legitimate point, but it grows less legitimate every day. >printing and scanning Works fine OOTB for nearly all printers and scanners using only GUIs to configure and use the devices. >connecting to external monitors This has worked perfectly fine for at least 10 years... >watching DVDs Also works just fine. >transferring files from their phones I do this all the time. Works OOTB on popular distros. The real problem is that people are change averse and that people like you spread uninformed FUD. Cut it out.

paulddraper 10y ago
What you call "uninformed FUD" are unfortunately real problems I have had in the past 12 months on Lenovo Thinkpad W530 with Ubuntu 14.04. Perhaps I am missing the ever elusive combination of distro and machine.
- Sir_Cmpwn 10y ago
  Looks like there are a couple of minor issues that can be resolved with a trivial amount of research: http://www.linlap.com/lenovo_thinkpad_w530 http://www.linlap.com/lenovo_thinkpad_w530 If you hit other problems, did you do any research? Did you ask for support anywhere?
  - Karunamon 10y ago
    Every minute I spend "resolving minor issues" is a minute I have to repeat if I ever reinstall, a minute where I could be getting work done but am instead dinking with the tools rather than using them, a minute where I am not using my computer for the thing I want to be using my computer for. Manual screwing around in .conf files, having to care about what GPU is in use and fussing around with configurators before using certain ports, features dropping out between driver upgrades.. and all this just from your link on one model of one computer that supposedly "supports Linux". Look, I'm sorry, this is 2017, not 1997. This is not even a sorta okay standard of usability anymore. Not for home, not for enterprise, nor should it be accepted or defended as such.
    - gnud 10y ago
      I completely agree. I stopped using Linux on my desktop a few years back (coincidentally, when Windows 7 came out). On the other hand - I would rather fiddle with Linux drivers than fiddle with Windows ad/telemetry settings. So I suspect I'll be switching back once Microsofts decides to force me off of Win7.
    - Sir_Cmpwn 10y ago
      People hit problems on Windows, too. According to your sort it's never Microsoft's fault or the shitty vendor's fault. As soon as you hit a problem on Linux, troubleshooting is out of the question and the only logical conclusion is that Linux is a garbage platform entirely unsuited to end-user use. Fuck off, spend 10 minutes fixing your shit and quit bitching or stick to your ad-ridden Windows 10 Spyware Edition.
      - paulddraper 10y ago
        > fixing your shit and quit bitching or stick to your ad-ridden Windows 10 Spyware Edition. I'm a "computer guy" so I'll take the former. Most every one takes the latter.
  - int_19h 10y ago
    This kind of response to reported problems is why Linux has been hovering at 1% desktop user share for over a decade now. It was exactly the same back when I was first installing Mandrake in 2002, and it seems like nothing has changed in that regard, even though the DEs etc look very different nowadays.
  - mschuetz 10y ago
    > can be resolved with a trivial amount of research If someone has to do a hundred trivial fixes then you might start to believe that there is something fundamentally broken with whatever software confronts me with a hundred trivial problems. I'd absolutely love to get away from windows but I tried it multiple times in the past and linux just isn't close to being an alternative in the desktop market. There are so many problems and almost everytime the solution involves doing some arcane stuff in the terminal. This isn't going to win your average user over to linux. Linux runs on all my servers, where it does an excellent job, but I can't see it replacing windows on my desktop systems, not until they fix some fundamental usability and driver issues.
    - Sir_Cmpwn 10y ago
      A hundred trivial fixes? More like 3 trivial fixes max! Jesus christ, Linux isn't that complicated. You're likely to run into a similar number of problems setting up your scanner on Windows! I've run Linux on desktops and laptops for years with next to no problems.
      - fauigerzigerk 10y ago
        Interestingly, there's always someone like you making such claims in every online debate about Linux on laptop. And yet I have never succeeded in making Linux run as well as Windows or macOS on any of my laptops over decades. I never seem to have one of those unicorn hardware/driver combinations that perform well, don't drain battery, don't run hot and don't break on dist-upgrade. I have researched my issues every single time because I would prefer to use Linux for many reasons, but the fixes I find are often partial, temporary and fragile. Eventually I give up and go back to macOS or Windows. dist-upgrade almost always breaks things for me, especially all those hard fought for fixes. And it's not just minor things that break. Last time (Ubuntu 16.04 to 16.10) networking stopped working completely because some maintainer had decided that network manager should no longer manage wired connections on my particular variant of Ubuntu.
      - DanBC 10y ago
        https://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=2254322 https://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=2254322 That's a 156 page thread. The result? Ubuntu still doesn't fully work on that particular machine. And that machine isn't particularly unusual in its class.
veridies 10y ago
> >they like editing Word documents > LibreOffice supports this and it works quite well. I would guess most people prefer google drive these days, though. I run LibreOffice on my Mac and documents ALWAYS render differently than on Word. I always have to proofread on an office computer before I send files out to my colleagues. > Do you actually know anyone non-technical who has used bluetooth at all in the past 5 years? Or technical for that matter, I've used bluetooth maybe 3 times in that time frame and always had no issues on Linux. I literally used Bluetooth this afternoon. I was playing music on an external speaker. I also use it to connect my phone to my car, and my friend was using it late last week to play back an audio recording that we needed to pay close attention to.
- Sir_Cmpwn 10y ago
  >I run LibreOffice on my Mac and documents ALWAYS render differently than on Word. I always have to proofread on an office computer before I send files out to my colleagues. If you're authoring the documents, you don't need to use docx. Use a more open format that's supported better by both. As for reading documents, who cares if it renders differently? So long as you can read it that's enough. >I literally used Bluetooth this afternoon. I was playing music on an external speaker. I also use it to connect my phone to my car, and my friend was using it late last week to play back an audio recording that we needed to pay close attention to. I was only referring to using your computer for bluetooth, not your phone, since that's the only subject that's relevant to the discussion. Audio is a fair point, though, but I'll point out that I have a pair of bluetooth headphones that works fine with Linux.
  - Karunamon 10y ago
    A more open format? You mean ODF? A niche format that literally only cough free software enthusiasts cough care about? You know what happens when you give someone .ODF in the real world? "Hey, (I can't open this|This looks completely broken), can you resend as doc/docx please?" As for reading documents, who cares if it renders differently? People in enterprise, which accounts for most usage of Office.
    - 10y ago
jedikv 10y ago
> This is your only legitimate point, but it grows less legitimate every day. As a gamer I've not seen much more progress (outside of WINE workarounds, some GoG ports and Valve-specific games). Most AAA games still exclusively windows due to things like DRM (Denuvo is windows-only IIRC)
- AsyncAwait 10y ago
  There are others, like BioShock Infinite, Mad Max, Hitman, Tomb Raider, Deus Ex: Mankind Divided, DiRT etc. which are not really Valve or GOG-ports.
- Sir_Cmpwn 10y ago
  I don't even game very much and I still have a lot of big titles on Steam+Linux - Rocket League, Alien: Isolation, Bioshock Infinite, Civ 5, a ton of Valve games, Torchlight II, PAYDAY 2, Saints Row, SOMA, FTL, Kerbal Space Program, Metro: Last Light, Borderlands 2, Tomb Raider, Towerfall Ascension... I could play nothing but positively rated games on Steam on Linux all day every day for a year without running out of things to do. Looking at popular releases I don't own, I see DOOM, ARK, XCOM 2, CS:GO, Borderlands pre-sequel, Cities: Skylines... gaming on Linux is great, man. Xbox controllers, PS4 controllers, steam controllers all work great, the steam link lets my play games at my couch, I can play everything with the gfx settings maxed out...
  - lenkite 10y ago
    Linux is not great for gaming. Tombraider took 4 years to come on Linux. And Rise of the Tombraider hasn't yet. No Witcher 3. No Dishonored. No for honor. None of the top rated new games. You generally have to wait for years before something appears and there is no guarantee of it.
    - Sir_Cmpwn 10y ago
      The Witcher 3 is making great progress on Wine, along with a lot of DX11 titles in general. You won't get every game, but you will get more than enough to keep you occupied with great games. It's no different than all the games you're missing out on Xbox when you buy a PS4. Linux is great for gaming.
ygaf 10y ago
>I do this all the time. Works OOTB on popular distros. Debian doesn't connect with android phones OOTB. What's the opposite of FUD?
- Sir_Cmpwn 10y ago
  Debian isn't really a hands-off distro. It works OOTB on i.e. Ubuntu, Fedora, Linux Mint, etc. It's trivial to get working on Debian, though: https://wiki.debian.org/mtp https://wiki.debian.org/mtp
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
TylerH 10y ago
Bluetooth is massively popular among millennials who enjoy listening to music streaming from their phone on wireless speakers, in cars, etc.

paulddraper 10y ago

What you call "uninformed FUD" are unfortunately real problems I have had in the past 12 months on Lenovo Thinkpad W530 with Ubuntu 14.04. Perhaps I am missing the ever elusive combination of distro and machine.

Sir_Cmpwn 10y ago
Looks like there are a couple of minor issues that can be resolved with a trivial amount of research: http://www.linlap.com/lenovo_thinkpad_w530 http://www.linlap.com/lenovo_thinkpad_w530 If you hit other problems, did you do any research? Did you ask for support anywhere?
- Karunamon 10y ago
  Every minute I spend "resolving minor issues" is a minute I have to repeat if I ever reinstall, a minute where I could be getting work done but am instead dinking with the tools rather than using them, a minute where I am not using my computer for the thing I want to be using my computer for. Manual screwing around in .conf files, having to care about what GPU is in use and fussing around with configurators before using certain ports, features dropping out between driver upgrades.. and all this just from your link on one model of one computer that supposedly "supports Linux". Look, I'm sorry, this is 2017, not 1997. This is not even a sorta okay standard of usability anymore. Not for home, not for enterprise, nor should it be accepted or defended as such.
  - gnud 10y ago
    I completely agree. I stopped using Linux on my desktop a few years back (coincidentally, when Windows 7 came out). On the other hand - I would rather fiddle with Linux drivers than fiddle with Windows ad/telemetry settings. So I suspect I'll be switching back once Microsofts decides to force me off of Win7.
  - Sir_Cmpwn 10y ago
    People hit problems on Windows, too. According to your sort it's never Microsoft's fault or the shitty vendor's fault. As soon as you hit a problem on Linux, troubleshooting is out of the question and the only logical conclusion is that Linux is a garbage platform entirely unsuited to end-user use. Fuck off, spend 10 minutes fixing your shit and quit bitching or stick to your ad-ridden Windows 10 Spyware Edition.
    - paulddraper 10y ago
      > fixing your shit and quit bitching or stick to your ad-ridden Windows 10 Spyware Edition. I'm a "computer guy" so I'll take the former. Most every one takes the latter.
- int_19h 10y ago
  This kind of response to reported problems is why Linux has been hovering at 1% desktop user share for over a decade now. It was exactly the same back when I was first installing Mandrake in 2002, and it seems like nothing has changed in that regard, even though the DEs etc look very different nowadays.
- mschuetz 10y ago
  > can be resolved with a trivial amount of research If someone has to do a hundred trivial fixes then you might start to believe that there is something fundamentally broken with whatever software confronts me with a hundred trivial problems. I'd absolutely love to get away from windows but I tried it multiple times in the past and linux just isn't close to being an alternative in the desktop market. There are so many problems and almost everytime the solution involves doing some arcane stuff in the terminal. This isn't going to win your average user over to linux. Linux runs on all my servers, where it does an excellent job, but I can't see it replacing windows on my desktop systems, not until they fix some fundamental usability and driver issues.
  - Sir_Cmpwn 10y ago
    A hundred trivial fixes? More like 3 trivial fixes max! Jesus christ, Linux isn't that complicated. You're likely to run into a similar number of problems setting up your scanner on Windows! I've run Linux on desktops and laptops for years with next to no problems.
    - fauigerzigerk 10y ago
      Interestingly, there's always someone like you making such claims in every online debate about Linux on laptop. And yet I have never succeeded in making Linux run as well as Windows or macOS on any of my laptops over decades. I never seem to have one of those unicorn hardware/driver combinations that perform well, don't drain battery, don't run hot and don't break on dist-upgrade. I have researched my issues every single time because I would prefer to use Linux for many reasons, but the fixes I find are often partial, temporary and fragile. Eventually I give up and go back to macOS or Windows. dist-upgrade almost always breaks things for me, especially all those hard fought for fixes. And it's not just minor things that break. Last time (Ubuntu 16.04 to 16.10) networking stopped working completely because some maintainer had decided that network manager should no longer manage wired connections on my particular variant of Ubuntu.
    - DanBC 10y ago
      https://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=2254322 https://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=2254322 That's a 156 page thread. The result? Ubuntu still doesn't fully work on that particular machine. And that machine isn't particularly unusual in its class.

veridies 10y ago

> >they like editing Word documents > LibreOffice supports this and it works quite well. I would guess most people prefer google drive these days, though. I run LibreOffice on my Mac and documents ALWAYS render differently than on Word. I always have to proofread on an office computer before I send files out to my colleagues. > Do you actually know anyone non-technical who has used bluetooth at all in the past 5 years? Or technical for that matter, I've used bluetooth maybe 3 times in that time frame and always had no issues on Linux. I literally used Bluetooth this afternoon. I was playing music on an external speaker. I also use it to connect my phone to my car, and my friend was using it late last week to play back an audio recording that we needed to pay close attention to.

Sir_Cmpwn 10y ago
>I run LibreOffice on my Mac and documents ALWAYS render differently than on Word. I always have to proofread on an office computer before I send files out to my colleagues. If you're authoring the documents, you don't need to use docx. Use a more open format that's supported better by both. As for reading documents, who cares if it renders differently? So long as you can read it that's enough. >I literally used Bluetooth this afternoon. I was playing music on an external speaker. I also use it to connect my phone to my car, and my friend was using it late last week to play back an audio recording that we needed to pay close attention to. I was only referring to using your computer for bluetooth, not your phone, since that's the only subject that's relevant to the discussion. Audio is a fair point, though, but I'll point out that I have a pair of bluetooth headphones that works fine with Linux.
- Karunamon 10y ago
  A more open format? You mean ODF? A niche format that literally only cough free software enthusiasts cough care about? You know what happens when you give someone .ODF in the real world? "Hey, (I can't open this|This looks completely broken), can you resend as doc/docx please?" As for reading documents, who cares if it renders differently? People in enterprise, which accounts for most usage of Office.
  - 10y ago

jedikv 10y ago

> This is your only legitimate point, but it grows less legitimate every day. As a gamer I've not seen much more progress (outside of WINE workarounds, some GoG ports and Valve-specific games). Most AAA games still exclusively windows due to things like DRM (Denuvo is windows-only IIRC)

AsyncAwait 10y ago
There are others, like BioShock Infinite, Mad Max, Hitman, Tomb Raider, Deus Ex: Mankind Divided, DiRT etc. which are not really Valve or GOG-ports.
Sir_Cmpwn 10y ago
I don't even game very much and I still have a lot of big titles on Steam+Linux - Rocket League, Alien: Isolation, Bioshock Infinite, Civ 5, a ton of Valve games, Torchlight II, PAYDAY 2, Saints Row, SOMA, FTL, Kerbal Space Program, Metro: Last Light, Borderlands 2, Tomb Raider, Towerfall Ascension... I could play nothing but positively rated games on Steam on Linux all day every day for a year without running out of things to do. Looking at popular releases I don't own, I see DOOM, ARK, XCOM 2, CS:GO, Borderlands pre-sequel, Cities: Skylines... gaming on Linux is great, man. Xbox controllers, PS4 controllers, steam controllers all work great, the steam link lets my play games at my couch, I can play everything with the gfx settings maxed out...
- lenkite 10y ago
  Linux is not great for gaming. Tombraider took 4 years to come on Linux. And Rise of the Tombraider hasn't yet. No Witcher 3. No Dishonored. No for honor. None of the top rated new games. You generally have to wait for years before something appears and there is no guarantee of it.
  - Sir_Cmpwn 10y ago
    The Witcher 3 is making great progress on Wine, along with a lot of DX11 titles in general. You won't get every game, but you will get more than enough to keep you occupied with great games. It's no different than all the games you're missing out on Xbox when you buy a PS4. Linux is great for gaming.

ygaf 10y ago

>I do this all the time. Works OOTB on popular distros. Debian doesn't connect with android phones OOTB. What's the opposite of FUD?

Sir_Cmpwn 10y ago
Debian isn't really a hands-off distro. It works OOTB on i.e. Ubuntu, Fedora, Linux Mint, etc. It's trivial to get working on Debian, though: https://wiki.debian.org/mtp https://wiki.debian.org/mtp
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]

TylerH 10y ago

Bluetooth is massively popular among millennials who enjoy listening to music streaming from their phone on wireless speakers, in cars, etc.