6 ms·

Great! Even if you disagree, just the existence of a Gov standard will: 1) Create a minimal common language for all sites that the citizens are forced to use.

by neves 10y ago

Great! Even if you disagree, just the existence of a Gov standard will: 1) Create a minimal common language for all sites that the citizens are forced to use. Now we can all can use these patterns in our sites knowing that more users will know them. Remember that software isn't intuitive, but familiar: http://www.asktog.com/papers/raskinintuit.html http://www.asktog.com/papers/raskinintuit.html 2) Force software developers for public services to put up a minimal decent interface, instead of just a list of features. The best page is their Design Principles: https://standards.usa.gov/design-principles/ https://standards.usa.gov/design-principles/

neves 10y ago
It is even better. They also have code guidelines. Easing the choosing of technologies (open source!) and configuration. Less opportunities for that crazy developer who wants to implement your costumer facing site in Common Lisp.
- ethbro 10y ago
  > Less opportunities for that crazy developer who wants to implement your costumer facing site in Common Lisp. Somewhere, an LM-2 who has been faithfully serving requests since 1981 just cried a single, perfectly simulated electronic tear.
  - kiriakasis 10y ago
    I think it is more about a general lack of trust; I think (my opinion) that neves was talking about choosing a technology for religion vs for pratical reasons.
  - mirekrusin 10y ago
    Surely this very system (HN) shed a tear somewhere between brackets as well.
- chaoky 10y ago
  Please tell me this is sarcasm! It's hard to tell. If it isn't, then all I have to say is that hacker news is written in the lisp dialect arc of Paul Graham, who got rich off of a customer facing site written in common lisp...
- lr4444lr 10y ago
  * Less opportunities for that crazy developer who wants to implement your costumer facing site in Common Lisp.* Yeah, that would never work: http://www.paulgraham.com/avg.html http://www.paulgraham.com/avg.html
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
voidlogic 10y ago
>Create a minimal common language for all sites that the citizens are forced to use. Hopefully, but this is just for the federal government. Each state may have their own standard or no standard at all. I have a feeling people spend more time interacting with state government websites...
- jonknee 10y ago
  > Each state may have their own standard or no standard at all. All the better that this is being given away for anyone to use.
  - throwaway96495 10y ago
    Doesn't necessarily matter. Usually the easiest path to resolving the next change request will be taken, i.e. patching on to the existing crappy thing from the 90s. The only thing that can change it is someone shouting. I suspect most software (not the glitzy things on HN) are driven by shouting. Shouting Driven Development. If the customer doesn't care enough about UI to raise their voice, then UI won't be prioritized.
    - neves 10y ago
      This is the beautiful aspect of this project: now the easiest path for a new project is to use the "official design", No need to argue about it.
- matt4077 10y ago
  Government standards are often used as blueprints in the private sector as well, not by enforcement but by contractual agreements with contractors. They may not always be at the bleeding edge, but they're usually very thorough, and have an ecosystem around them, such as seminars and case law.
graycat 10y ago
> Remember that software isn't intuitive, but familiar: Well put. In practice, largely correct. But literally minded me wants software also to be DOCUMENTED. E.g., at my Web site, each page has a link Help that explains the page hopefully in simple but clear terms. But, wait, there's more: At my Web site, also a user never has to try to guess what an icon does -- there are no icons. Civilizations had lots of icons, and eventually we got the Roman alphabet which I believe is a huge step forward. So, for links I just use words in the Roman alphabet. The pages never do anything sudden, e.g., cover up what a user is reading with a pull-down, pop-up, or roll-over -- there aren't any. For your > Remember that software isn't intuitive, but familiar: I do exploit that: The pages all use just the simplest, old HTML, and I've written not even a single line of JavaScript (JS). Microsoft's ASP.NET has a little standard JS for me, maybe having to do with positioning the cursor or some such. But, really, all the pages just use the most standard and elementary HTML controls 2+ billion people already know very well. For more, the fonts are all relatively large, say, 24 pixels high. The colors all have high contrast, and the 25% of men who are partially red-green color blind will still do just fine. There is just one Web site with just one user interface (UI), the same for workstations, desktop, laptops, tablets, pads, smartphones, watches, Dick Tracy's watch, Flash Gordon's magic decoder rings, and any toys in Cracker Jacks boxes that can run a Web browser up to date as of about 10 years ago. Each Web page is exactly 800 pixels wide. The layout is not by HTML div elements but by tables and is always the same for all users. There are always both vertical and horizontal scroll bars, and the pages should still be usable in a window as narrow as 300 pixels. For more, how the UI works is simple and intuitive, so much so a 7 year old with a cheap smartphone and who knows no English (the text is all in very simple English with no alternatives) should be able to do fine with three minutes of instruction or 15 minutes of experimentation. So, one of my key thoughts was to exploit for basic HTML just your > Remember that software isn't intuitive, but familiar: So, I stayed with just the simplest HTML knowing that 2+ billion people were then already quite "familiar". Where can one see my Web site? At present nowhere! Since just now my development computer is sick from data corruption, e.g., crucial parts of Microsoft's .NET are not available to my software, my software won't run even on my development computer. Right, bummer. But I've put together a nice list of parts for a new development computer also powerful enough for a good, first Web server for my Web site. Intend to order the parts and plug them together soon! Then I'll get the software and data on the new computer, make some tweaks in the code I have in mind, load a lot of data, and go live.
Twirrim 10y ago
State websites drastically improved in Hawaii once the company I was working for (that provides https://ehawaii.gov https://ehawaii.gov and many of the state's sites) managed to get a centrally defined standard set in conjunction with the CTO. It meant we could get everyone on the same page, speaking the same design language and really thinking about how they presented their departments information.
- Keverw 10y ago
  Wow Hawaii's website got to be the best state website. Very modern and clean layout! Great job. I know some states don't even have responsive websites either, or some do but subdomains are still outdated designs. I wonder if how well a state maintains their website, is an indication of the rest of the state's quality. I know next time I move I'm going to pick a state based on the weather anyways(thinking Florida). Very surprised Florida's website is very outdated. Mobile web design has been around for quite a while, and I feel like their website is a bit of a disservice to people wanting information on the go. It seems like though states seem to care more about their website, than cities do... My local city here in Ohio website isn't even mobile friendly. Edit: Well I found one subdomain that isn't mobile friendly - https://emrs.ehawaii.gov/emrs/public/home.html https://emrs.ehawaii.gov/emrs/public/home.html but still it looks like most of their sites are.
  - Twirrim 10y ago
    It was really cutting edge when it was released around 4 years ago. Mobile first, statically generated content (regenerated every hour or so). The design standards for the state were drawn up in collaboration between the CTO's office and my employers at the time (at no expense to the state). First and foremost: Mobile first, responsive. That EMRS website appears to be the same old same old. It has been that way for at least 7-8 years now at the very least, as it looked like that already when I joined the company (2010, I think). I guess they haven't agreed to a redesign yet (most of the agencies jumped on the redesign opportunity, especially given there was no financial impact on them.)
- DopamineHigh 10y ago
tambourine_man 10y ago
I don't know if I agree with Jeff, the iPad is definitively more intuitive, because it mimics real world interaction better than the mouse. There's no explaining needed, touch it, move it, it's direct manipulation vs indirect. I'm sure, when we have weight, texture feedback, it will be even more "intuitive"
- wernercd 10y ago
  You forgot Revolutionary. Break Through. Cool. Beautiful. Faster. Zippy. Precise. Awesome. Magic! https://www.youtube.com/embed/BETSuT2RNLs?version=3&hl=en&fs=1&enablejsapi=1&origin=https://www.buzzfeed.com&autoplay=0&showinfo=0&wmode=opaque https://www.youtube.com/embed/BETSuT2RNLs?version=3&hl=en&fs...
  - tambourine_man 10y ago
    I don't understand what your comment has to do with what I wrote, but yeah, Apple uses a lot of adjectives to sell their products.
NTH 10y ago
Nothing about this forces any government projects to do anything. It's just recommended guidelines.

by neves 10y ago

neves 10y ago

It is even better. They also have code guidelines. Easing the choosing of technologies (open source!) and configuration. Less opportunities for that crazy developer who wants to implement your costumer facing site in Common Lisp.

ethbro 10y ago
> Less opportunities for that crazy developer who wants to implement your costumer facing site in Common Lisp. Somewhere, an LM-2 who has been faithfully serving requests since 1981 just cried a single, perfectly simulated electronic tear.
- kiriakasis 10y ago
  I think it is more about a general lack of trust; I think (my opinion) that neves was talking about choosing a technology for religion vs for pratical reasons.
- mirekrusin 10y ago
  Surely this very system (HN) shed a tear somewhere between brackets as well.
chaoky 10y ago
Please tell me this is sarcasm! It's hard to tell. If it isn't, then all I have to say is that hacker news is written in the lisp dialect arc of Paul Graham, who got rich off of a customer facing site written in common lisp...
lr4444lr 10y ago
* Less opportunities for that crazy developer who wants to implement your costumer facing site in Common Lisp.* Yeah, that would never work: http://www.paulgraham.com/avg.html http://www.paulgraham.com/avg.html
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]

voidlogic 10y ago

>Create a minimal common language for all sites that the citizens are forced to use. Hopefully, but this is just for the federal government. Each state may have their own standard or no standard at all. I have a feeling people spend more time interacting with state government websites...

jonknee 10y ago
> Each state may have their own standard or no standard at all. All the better that this is being given away for anyone to use.
- throwaway96495 10y ago
  Doesn't necessarily matter. Usually the easiest path to resolving the next change request will be taken, i.e. patching on to the existing crappy thing from the 90s. The only thing that can change it is someone shouting. I suspect most software (not the glitzy things on HN) are driven by shouting. Shouting Driven Development. If the customer doesn't care enough about UI to raise their voice, then UI won't be prioritized.
  - neves 10y ago
    This is the beautiful aspect of this project: now the easiest path for a new project is to use the "official design", No need to argue about it.
matt4077 10y ago
Government standards are often used as blueprints in the private sector as well, not by enforcement but by contractual agreements with contractors. They may not always be at the bleeding edge, but they're usually very thorough, and have an ecosystem around them, such as seminars and case law.

graycat 10y ago

> Remember that software isn't intuitive, but familiar: Well put. In practice, largely correct. But literally minded me wants software also to be DOCUMENTED. E.g., at my Web site, each page has a link Help that explains the page hopefully in simple but clear terms. But, wait, there's more: At my Web site, also a user never has to try to guess what an icon does -- there are no icons. Civilizations had lots of icons, and eventually we got the Roman alphabet which I believe is a huge step forward. So, for links I just use words in the Roman alphabet. The pages never do anything sudden, e.g., cover up what a user is reading with a pull-down, pop-up, or roll-over -- there aren't any. For your > Remember that software isn't intuitive, but familiar: I do exploit that: The pages all use just the simplest, old HTML, and I've written not even a single line of JavaScript (JS). Microsoft's ASP.NET has a little standard JS for me, maybe having to do with positioning the cursor or some such. But, really, all the pages just use the most standard and elementary HTML controls 2+ billion people already know very well. For more, the fonts are all relatively large, say, 24 pixels high. The colors all have high contrast, and the 25% of men who are partially red-green color blind will still do just fine. There is just one Web site with just one user interface (UI), the same for workstations, desktop, laptops, tablets, pads, smartphones, watches, Dick Tracy's watch, Flash Gordon's magic decoder rings, and any toys in Cracker Jacks boxes that can run a Web browser up to date as of about 10 years ago. Each Web page is exactly 800 pixels wide. The layout is not by HTML div elements but by tables and is always the same for all users. There are always both vertical and horizontal scroll bars, and the pages should still be usable in a window as narrow as 300 pixels. For more, how the UI works is simple and intuitive, so much so a 7 year old with a cheap smartphone and who knows no English (the text is all in very simple English with no alternatives) should be able to do fine with three minutes of instruction or 15 minutes of experimentation. So, one of my key thoughts was to exploit for basic HTML just your > Remember that software isn't intuitive, but familiar: So, I stayed with just the simplest HTML knowing that 2+ billion people were then already quite "familiar". Where can one see my Web site? At present nowhere! Since just now my development computer is sick from data corruption, e.g., crucial parts of Microsoft's .NET are not available to my software, my software won't run even on my development computer. Right, bummer. But I've put together a nice list of parts for a new development computer also powerful enough for a good, first Web server for my Web site. Intend to order the parts and plug them together soon! Then I'll get the software and data on the new computer, make some tweaks in the code I have in mind, load a lot of data, and go live.

Twirrim 10y ago

State websites drastically improved in Hawaii once the company I was working for (that provides https://ehawaii.gov https://ehawaii.gov and many of the state's sites) managed to get a centrally defined standard set in conjunction with the CTO. It meant we could get everyone on the same page, speaking the same design language and really thinking about how they presented their departments information.

Keverw 10y ago
Wow Hawaii's website got to be the best state website. Very modern and clean layout! Great job. I know some states don't even have responsive websites either, or some do but subdomains are still outdated designs. I wonder if how well a state maintains their website, is an indication of the rest of the state's quality. I know next time I move I'm going to pick a state based on the weather anyways(thinking Florida). Very surprised Florida's website is very outdated. Mobile web design has been around for quite a while, and I feel like their website is a bit of a disservice to people wanting information on the go. It seems like though states seem to care more about their website, than cities do... My local city here in Ohio website isn't even mobile friendly. Edit: Well I found one subdomain that isn't mobile friendly - https://emrs.ehawaii.gov/emrs/public/home.html https://emrs.ehawaii.gov/emrs/public/home.html but still it looks like most of their sites are.
- Twirrim 10y ago
  It was really cutting edge when it was released around 4 years ago. Mobile first, statically generated content (regenerated every hour or so). The design standards for the state were drawn up in collaboration between the CTO's office and my employers at the time (at no expense to the state). First and foremost: Mobile first, responsive. That EMRS website appears to be the same old same old. It has been that way for at least 7-8 years now at the very least, as it looked like that already when I joined the company (2010, I think). I guess they haven't agreed to a redesign yet (most of the agencies jumped on the redesign opportunity, especially given there was no financial impact on them.)
DopamineHigh 10y ago

tambourine_man 10y ago

I don't know if I agree with Jeff, the iPad is definitively more intuitive, because it mimics real world interaction better than the mouse. There's no explaining needed, touch it, move it, it's direct manipulation vs indirect. I'm sure, when we have weight, texture feedback, it will be even more "intuitive"

wernercd 10y ago
You forgot Revolutionary. Break Through. Cool. Beautiful. Faster. Zippy. Precise. Awesome. Magic! https://www.youtube.com/embed/BETSuT2RNLs?version=3&hl=en&fs=1&enablejsapi=1&origin=https://www.buzzfeed.com&autoplay=0&showinfo=0&wmode=opaque https://www.youtube.com/embed/BETSuT2RNLs?version=3&hl=en&fs...
- tambourine_man 10y ago
  I don't understand what your comment has to do with what I wrote, but yeah, Apple uses a lot of adjectives to sell their products.

NTH 10y ago

Nothing about this forces any government projects to do anything. It's just recommended guidelines.