6 ms·

I'm not 100% sure what is your experience with others but these kind of people are pathological customers. At least in my business. You can test this by adding

by tlogan 10y ago

I'm not 100% sure what is your experience with others but these kind of people are pathological customers. At least in my business. You can test this by adding something like this to your honeypot page or home page: if you have do not financial needs or you are student please email us and we can discuss how to you can get software at discounted rate or free. And you will get just bunch of hate emails. And we even decided: "who ever writes us an email that email contains "thank you" to "please" phrase (or nice in any other way) they will get our service for free". Just that: just be nice and you will get it free. And you know what: you will get maybe two or three emails in a year which have "thank you" or "please" in the email. All other emails will be rude emails demanding something. Like "I'm retired I do not have money to pay for your shit. Give me free or fuck yourself" (actual email).

jimmies 10y ago
Or maybe when they searched for a crack and found your smug page, they get pissed because they were trapped, and some get even more pissed when they were instructed to beg for a license. I wonder if you see a difference if you just put out a button on the page (that is not searchable by an engine) with a 75% off coupon, so they feel like they 'saved' the money by just being smarter than other people. To you as a software developer, I don't think it will hurt the business because those are the ones that aren't going to pay the full price anyway (and because the coupon cannot be shared/searched as a standard discount, you won't risk people who are willing to pay the full price).
- tlogan 10y ago
  We had it on pricing page. But it does not matter - because that is not the point. You should not have these kind of people (rude, pathological, etc.) as customers because they will hurt your business. If you cannot get money from somebody at least that person needs to be nice so that your support is not stressed out, you have pleasure working with that person, etc.
  - jimmies 10y ago
    If you don't want them as your customers in the first place, then why bother setting up the honeypot to trap them and convince them to pay?
    - biot 10y ago
      The article's author is Andy Brice. I see no evidence that HN user tlogan setup a honeypot page, let alone a "smug" one. As tlogan claimed, the ability to get a discounted or free copy was directly on their pricing page.
    - tlogan 10y ago
      > If you don't want them as your customers in the first place, > then why bother setting up the honeypot to trap them and > convince them to pay? Because stupid me was thinking that people who are looking for discount / free do not have money (students, financial difficulties, etc.) and they need help. No - that is not the case. Majority of people who are looking for discount / free are pathological.
      - jcoffland 10y ago
        Now you've become another one of the angry people who's angry that everyone else is so angry.
      - jimmies 10y ago
        I don't know about you and how you set up your page, but I think how you approach those people matter too. I have seen Parted Magic's author, Patrick, being a pain in the ass about offering a free student version [1]. So in that case, technically a student version is provided, I don't think anyone would ever choose to beg for the license, or they will send an email and say mean things. Of course, his intention might be good, but with that page, no one would want to take his good intention. Case in point, so even I was a student, I still chose to pay full price for Parted Magic after reading that (not very happy, but OK), and got a download link to a version that had a bug (very disappointed). So what did I do? I didn't bother to ask the author for anything, fearing I will upset him, and just went ahead and downloaded another version on thepiratebay that works. Can it be handled differently instead of having that page ranting about people being assholes? I think so. Just ask them to verify the .edu address automatically by sending them an automated email. I am sure I am so much happier being offered a 50% discount being a student and get verified automatically than to get a free version when I beg. https://partedmagic.com/students/ https://partedmagic.com/students/
mirimir 10y ago
What would you say if someone offered to mail cash to you? Or asked if you accept Bitcoin?
- patio11 10y ago
  Anecdote: Bingo Card Creator got a lot of customers from the checking account generations. Anyone offering to send in a check (or pay via a school purchase order) got the software for free, because accepting a check would cost us more than the value of the software.
- tlogan 10y ago
  If the email was nice (no profanities, thank you or something) we will just give it free - just keep it simple. The point I'm trying to make here is that offering something cheaper via webpage will attract wrong type of people (patio11 calls them pathological customers). I think there was also 37signals post about why they do not offer discounts for students or similar. In short, just keep it simple as Veen said: If I offer a service or product to what I assume are reasonable, rational, intelligent human beings, the deal is this: you pay me what I ask and you get the service I'm offering at that price.
  - mirimir 10y ago
    Yes, that's fair enough. But the point is that there are people who would pay you, but can't do so using credit cards. That's pretty common in parts of Africa, Middle East, etc.
    - tlogan 10y ago
      Sure - as you probably know if run a SaaS business you will be receiving requests for users wanting to pay using alternate methods (Orange payment, invoices, bitcoin, onecoin, etc.). But not via this email: these were normal support requests.
jdietrich 10y ago
It very much depends on the market. Someone pirating a $40 table plan program is almost certainly pathological, granted. A lot of other software is totally unaffordable for keen amateurs or people in developing countries. In my field (music technology), most software ranges from hundreds to thousands of dollars. A serious composer might have $30,000 worth of software licenses. Cut-down licenses are usually available, but they're often too barebones to be useful; paying for software that's worse than the pirated version is difficult to stomach if you're on a tight budget. I fully understand why a 19-year-old EDM producer might choose to torrent Ableton Suite and Komplete Ultimate, rather than trying to find $2,000 for full licenses or paying $300 for a tiny fraction of the full functionality. Even the cut-down licenses seem absurdly expensive if your price anchor for software is $0.99. It's a really difficult problem and I'm not sure what the solution is. I suspect that there's now a tragedy of the commons problem - piracy is so rampant that the costs are being priced into software, which just makes it less affordable. The minority who do pay for their software are subsidising the majority who don't. Heavy-duty DRM solutions like iLok[0] have barely made a dent on the problem and created a huge amount of annoyance for legitimate customers. The bigger players are deeply integrating their software with proprietary hardware[1][2][3], which seems to be a promising approach. [0]https://www.ilok.com/ https://www.ilok.com/ [1]https://www.native-instruments.com/en/products/maschine/production-systems/maschine/ https://www.native-instruments.com/en/products/maschine/prod... [2]https://www.ableton.com/en/push/ https://www.ableton.com/en/push/ [3]http://www.uaudio.com/uad-accelerators.html http://www.uaudio.com/uad-accelerators.html
- pdonis 10y ago
  I don't think the makers of software costing hundreds or thousands of dollars per unit are the target audience of the article. > Even the cut-down licenses seem absurdly expensive if your price anchor for software is $0.99. If your price anchor for software is $0.99, you're not going to be able to afford any software that's worth more than $0.99. The music software you refer to is certainly worth more than that. I agree that it shouldn't have to cost $30,000 for a serious composer to have the tools they need; but I don't think it should cost $0.99 either. There is a lot of value in that software. > It's a really difficult problem I think a big part of the problem is that much software, like the music software you refer to, has a very small market. Yes, "very small" is a relative term, but what I'm comparing it to is, for example, the market for Microsoft Office. The main buyers in that market are large corporations and organizations, that buy thousands, tens of thousands, or even hundreds of thousands of copies every few years. That's why Microsoft can afford to give heavy discounts to many other buyers, like students: those buyers are just a trickle anyway compared to their main revenue stream, and giving the discounts is probably a net win anyway once you factor in PR and lock-in (after all, the large corporations buying Office know that everybody learns how to use it in school). There is no counterpart to those huge corporate buyers in markets like the one for music software. So the makers of software that sells in those markets simply can't afford to offer the kinds of pricing tiers that Microsoft can; they would go out of business.
novaleaf 10y ago
I think msft well understands the value of letting your product get pirated (within reason: you still need a "crack"). Of course this lets the pathological people cheat and get your system for free, but it also lets students learn and use your product so when they graduate to money makers (and decision makers) they will naturally gravitate towards msft products.
oxide 10y ago
This is why I am always polite when I have to deal with customer service, the guy at the drive-thru, anything like that. The general public is (generally, heh) self-entitled and abusive, so a polite tone and a smile can go a long way.

by tlogan 10y ago

jimmies 10y ago

Or maybe when they searched for a crack and found your smug page, they get pissed because they were trapped, and some get even more pissed when they were instructed to beg for a license. I wonder if you see a difference if you just put out a button on the page (that is not searchable by an engine) with a 75% off coupon, so they feel like they 'saved' the money by just being smarter than other people. To you as a software developer, I don't think it will hurt the business because those are the ones that aren't going to pay the full price anyway (and because the coupon cannot be shared/searched as a standard discount, you won't risk people who are willing to pay the full price).

tlogan 10y ago
We had it on pricing page. But it does not matter - because that is not the point. You should not have these kind of people (rude, pathological, etc.) as customers because they will hurt your business. If you cannot get money from somebody at least that person needs to be nice so that your support is not stressed out, you have pleasure working with that person, etc.
- jimmies 10y ago
  If you don't want them as your customers in the first place, then why bother setting up the honeypot to trap them and convince them to pay?
  - biot 10y ago
    The article's author is Andy Brice. I see no evidence that HN user tlogan setup a honeypot page, let alone a "smug" one. As tlogan claimed, the ability to get a discounted or free copy was directly on their pricing page.
  - tlogan 10y ago
    > If you don't want them as your customers in the first place, > then why bother setting up the honeypot to trap them and > convince them to pay? Because stupid me was thinking that people who are looking for discount / free do not have money (students, financial difficulties, etc.) and they need help. No - that is not the case. Majority of people who are looking for discount / free are pathological.
    - jcoffland 10y ago
      Now you've become another one of the angry people who's angry that everyone else is so angry.
    - jimmies 10y ago
      I don't know about you and how you set up your page, but I think how you approach those people matter too. I have seen Parted Magic's author, Patrick, being a pain in the ass about offering a free student version [1]. So in that case, technically a student version is provided, I don't think anyone would ever choose to beg for the license, or they will send an email and say mean things. Of course, his intention might be good, but with that page, no one would want to take his good intention. Case in point, so even I was a student, I still chose to pay full price for Parted Magic after reading that (not very happy, but OK), and got a download link to a version that had a bug (very disappointed). So what did I do? I didn't bother to ask the author for anything, fearing I will upset him, and just went ahead and downloaded another version on thepiratebay that works. Can it be handled differently instead of having that page ranting about people being assholes? I think so. Just ask them to verify the .edu address automatically by sending them an automated email. I am sure I am so much happier being offered a 50% discount being a student and get verified automatically than to get a free version when I beg. https://partedmagic.com/students/ https://partedmagic.com/students/

mirimir 10y ago

What would you say if someone offered to mail cash to you? Or asked if you accept Bitcoin?

patio11 10y ago
Anecdote: Bingo Card Creator got a lot of customers from the checking account generations. Anyone offering to send in a check (or pay via a school purchase order) got the software for free, because accepting a check would cost us more than the value of the software.
tlogan 10y ago
If the email was nice (no profanities, thank you or something) we will just give it free - just keep it simple. The point I'm trying to make here is that offering something cheaper via webpage will attract wrong type of people (patio11 calls them pathological customers). I think there was also 37signals post about why they do not offer discounts for students or similar. In short, just keep it simple as Veen said: If I offer a service or product to what I assume are reasonable, rational, intelligent human beings, the deal is this: you pay me what I ask and you get the service I'm offering at that price.
- mirimir 10y ago
  Yes, that's fair enough. But the point is that there are people who would pay you, but can't do so using credit cards. That's pretty common in parts of Africa, Middle East, etc.
  - tlogan 10y ago
    Sure - as you probably know if run a SaaS business you will be receiving requests for users wanting to pay using alternate methods (Orange payment, invoices, bitcoin, onecoin, etc.). But not via this email: these were normal support requests.

jdietrich 10y ago

It very much depends on the market. Someone pirating a $40 table plan program is almost certainly pathological, granted. A lot of other software is totally unaffordable for keen amateurs or people in developing countries. In my field (music technology), most software ranges from hundreds to thousands of dollars. A serious composer might have $30,000 worth of software licenses. Cut-down licenses are usually available, but they're often too barebones to be useful; paying for software that's worse than the pirated version is difficult to stomach if you're on a tight budget. I fully understand why a 19-year-old EDM producer might choose to torrent Ableton Suite and Komplete Ultimate, rather than trying to find $2,000 for full licenses or paying $300 for a tiny fraction of the full functionality. Even the cut-down licenses seem absurdly expensive if your price anchor for software is $0.99. It's a really difficult problem and I'm not sure what the solution is. I suspect that there's now a tragedy of the commons problem - piracy is so rampant that the costs are being priced into software, which just makes it less affordable. The minority who do pay for their software are subsidising the majority who don't. Heavy-duty DRM solutions like iLok[0] have barely made a dent on the problem and created a huge amount of annoyance for legitimate customers. The bigger players are deeply integrating their software with proprietary hardware[1][2][3], which seems to be a promising approach. [0]https://www.ilok.com/ https://www.ilok.com/ [1]https://www.native-instruments.com/en/products/maschine/production-systems/maschine/ https://www.native-instruments.com/en/products/maschine/prod... [2]https://www.ableton.com/en/push/ https://www.ableton.com/en/push/ [3]http://www.uaudio.com/uad-accelerators.html http://www.uaudio.com/uad-accelerators.html

pdonis 10y ago
I don't think the makers of software costing hundreds or thousands of dollars per unit are the target audience of the article. > Even the cut-down licenses seem absurdly expensive if your price anchor for software is $0.99. If your price anchor for software is $0.99, you're not going to be able to afford any software that's worth more than $0.99. The music software you refer to is certainly worth more than that. I agree that it shouldn't have to cost $30,000 for a serious composer to have the tools they need; but I don't think it should cost $0.99 either. There is a lot of value in that software. > It's a really difficult problem I think a big part of the problem is that much software, like the music software you refer to, has a very small market. Yes, "very small" is a relative term, but what I'm comparing it to is, for example, the market for Microsoft Office. The main buyers in that market are large corporations and organizations, that buy thousands, tens of thousands, or even hundreds of thousands of copies every few years. That's why Microsoft can afford to give heavy discounts to many other buyers, like students: those buyers are just a trickle anyway compared to their main revenue stream, and giving the discounts is probably a net win anyway once you factor in PR and lock-in (after all, the large corporations buying Office know that everybody learns how to use it in school). There is no counterpart to those huge corporate buyers in markets like the one for music software. So the makers of software that sells in those markets simply can't afford to offer the kinds of pricing tiers that Microsoft can; they would go out of business.

novaleaf 10y ago

I think msft well understands the value of letting your product get pirated (within reason: you still need a "crack"). Of course this lets the pathological people cheat and get your system for free, but it also lets students learn and use your product so when they graduate to money makers (and decision makers) they will naturally gravitate towards msft products.

oxide 10y ago

This is why I am always polite when I have to deal with customer service, the guy at the drive-thru, anything like that. The general public is (generally, heh) self-entitled and abusive, so a polite tone and a smile can go a long way.