4 ms·

I used to have a print-out of this on my bedroom wall as a teenager, next to the Hacker Manifesto. Looking back at this as an adult, having not read it for man

by biofox 10y ago

I used to have a print-out of this on my bedroom wall as a teenager, next to the Hacker Manifesto. Looking back at this as an adult, having not read it for many year, I'm shocked at how antisocial it is. Did I really believe this stuff? I'm guessing it was a way for an intelligent, yet powerless, kid to gain some sense of control -- identifying strongly with my skills to feel superior to the society that denied me the freedoms I desired. Now, as an adult member of society, I'm acutely aware how much I depend on the established systems for my security and well-being. Young people shouldn't feel the need to withdraw and create their own subcultures to gain a sense of belonging or security. We should be incorporating them into society, giving them a sense of purpose and belonging, and equipping them to make meaningful contributions. Any thoughts how we can achieve that?

digi_owl 10y ago
Not quite sure. But perhaps treating them as persons and not as pests may be a start. I think the primary problem humanity has is that adults kinda forget that we learned our way as much by experiencing things first hand as being lectured on what was good and what was bad. Forbidden fruit and all that. BTW, i seem to recall reading that giving kids responsibilities early results in them grouping up to behave responsible. The example used was a kid watching the family store while the parent was out running and errand or some such.
xg15 10y ago
> Young people shouldn't feel the need to withdraw and create their own subcultures to gain a sense of belonging or security. We should be incorporating them into society, giving them a sense of purpose and belonging, and equipping them to make meaningful contributions. I'm not sure if this at all possible or even desirable. I'm not a psychologist, but my impression is that a certain degree of exploring identities is an important part of growing up - and that often involves separation from established structures and a change of relationship to family, school, etc, at least for a while. In the past, those spaces were physical, today they are a mix of physical and virtual. That said, not everyone is rebellious as a teenager and there are many people who easily find their identities as parts if well-established groups. However people are different and I don't think those groups would at any time be desirable for everyone. ( Or if they were, we'd have a scarily homogeneous society) Of course some subcultures and alternative groups can lead people in bad directions and be in fact harmful to them. But then the task should be to protect against those bad groups - or even better, give people the strength to protect themselves. Even in those cases, it's important to keep in mind why exactly the groups are harmful. Seeing the existence of sub-cultures per se as the problem seems too simple to me.
krapp 10y ago
>Looking back at this as an adult, having not read it for many year, I'm shocked at how antisocial it is. Did I really believe this stuff? Congratulations, you've lived long enough to become the villain. /s
131012 10y ago
Challenging the world that came before them is a normal process for the development of teenagers identity. It is a way to negotiate their entry into 'the system' and I honestly think it drives us forward. But to answer directly your question, I would say abolish tuition fees, mass incarceration and UX paradigm.
noonespecial 10y ago
>I'm shocked at how antisocial it is. Did I really believe this stuff? I did. And I remember how much. Today I think being thrown wide and clear of "the mainstream" by my teenaged rebellion was valuable. It gave me a great view from the outside so that as I began my journey back i could better find my place in it. What I saw that most changed my mind? I was expecting a world of nefarious villains, but what I found was nothing but a bunch of weak anit-patterns and emergent behaviours. The world didn't suck because illuminati super-villains were oppressing the sheeple, it sucked for the same reason parks get trashed. Garbage accumulates and nobody bothers to pick it up.
- ethbro 10y ago
  > The world didn't suck because illuminati super-villains were oppressing the sheeple, it sucked for the same reason parks get trashed. Garbage accumulates and nobody bothers to pick it up. Excellently phrased. And paradoxically, harder to fix. Everyone is willing to play at being the hero, but no one wants to pick up garbage.
discombobulate 10y ago
> Any thoughts how we can achieve that? It says how in the manifesto. Schools & universities do the job of indoctrination: 'Society suppresses us. Yes, it suppresses freedom of thought. With its cruel education programs in schools and universities. They drill into children their view of things and any attempt to express a different opinion is denied and punished.'. > Now, as an adult member of society, I'm acutely aware how much I depend on the established systems for my security and well-being The System in its current form is one configuration. If you benefit from the current system, you're likely inclined to the status quo. A pig in a cage on antibiotics.
solatic 10y ago
> Young people shouldn't feel the need to withdraw and create their own subcultures to gain a sense of belonging or security. We should be incorporating them into society, giving them a sense of purpose and belonging, and equipping them to make meaningful contributions. None of that matters when you're a teenager. A large part of puberty is establishing identity and a unique sense of self, in contrast to the sense of belonging to family and community that existed in a healthy childhood. And as for security - the trope that teenagers feel invincible exists for a reason, and not for a cultural one. Anytime society attempts to define what it means to make a "healthy" contribution, remember that it is society making that determination, and not the individual. Part of growing up is figuring out for yourself what kinds of decisions are healthy for you as an individual, and the job of parents and educators is to give the benefit of their experience as mentors and help guide young people into understanding whether or not the decisions they are making are actually healthy for them. Parents restricting their adolescent children to choices which are healthy for the parents/society (but not for the child) is ultimately one of the biggest ruptures of family relationships.

by biofox 10y ago

digi_owl 10y ago

Not quite sure. But perhaps treating them as persons and not as pests may be a start. I think the primary problem humanity has is that adults kinda forget that we learned our way as much by experiencing things first hand as being lectured on what was good and what was bad. Forbidden fruit and all that. BTW, i seem to recall reading that giving kids responsibilities early results in them grouping up to behave responsible. The example used was a kid watching the family store while the parent was out running and errand or some such.

xg15 10y ago

> Young people shouldn't feel the need to withdraw and create their own subcultures to gain a sense of belonging or security. We should be incorporating them into society, giving them a sense of purpose and belonging, and equipping them to make meaningful contributions. I'm not sure if this at all possible or even desirable. I'm not a psychologist, but my impression is that a certain degree of exploring identities is an important part of growing up - and that often involves separation from established structures and a change of relationship to family, school, etc, at least for a while. In the past, those spaces were physical, today they are a mix of physical and virtual. That said, not everyone is rebellious as a teenager and there are many people who easily find their identities as parts if well-established groups. However people are different and I don't think those groups would at any time be desirable for everyone. ( Or if they were, we'd have a scarily homogeneous society) Of course some subcultures and alternative groups can lead people in bad directions and be in fact harmful to them. But then the task should be to protect against those bad groups - or even better, give people the strength to protect themselves. Even in those cases, it's important to keep in mind why exactly the groups are harmful. Seeing the existence of sub-cultures per se as the problem seems too simple to me.

krapp 10y ago

>Looking back at this as an adult, having not read it for many year, I'm shocked at how antisocial it is. Did I really believe this stuff? Congratulations, you've lived long enough to become the villain. /s

131012 10y ago

Challenging the world that came before them is a normal process for the development of teenagers identity. It is a way to negotiate their entry into 'the system' and I honestly think it drives us forward. But to answer directly your question, I would say abolish tuition fees, mass incarceration and UX paradigm.

noonespecial 10y ago

>I'm shocked at how antisocial it is. Did I really believe this stuff? I did. And I remember how much. Today I think being thrown wide and clear of "the mainstream" by my teenaged rebellion was valuable. It gave me a great view from the outside so that as I began my journey back i could better find my place in it. What I saw that most changed my mind? I was expecting a world of nefarious villains, but what I found was nothing but a bunch of weak anit-patterns and emergent behaviours. The world didn't suck because illuminati super-villains were oppressing the sheeple, it sucked for the same reason parks get trashed. Garbage accumulates and nobody bothers to pick it up.

ethbro 10y ago
> The world didn't suck because illuminati super-villains were oppressing the sheeple, it sucked for the same reason parks get trashed. Garbage accumulates and nobody bothers to pick it up. Excellently phrased. And paradoxically, harder to fix. Everyone is willing to play at being the hero, but no one wants to pick up garbage.

discombobulate 10y ago

> Any thoughts how we can achieve that? It says how in the manifesto. Schools & universities do the job of indoctrination: 'Society suppresses us. Yes, it suppresses freedom of thought. With its cruel education programs in schools and universities. They drill into children their view of things and any attempt to express a different opinion is denied and punished.'. > Now, as an adult member of society, I'm acutely aware how much I depend on the established systems for my security and well-being The System in its current form is one configuration. If you benefit from the current system, you're likely inclined to the status quo. A pig in a cage on antibiotics.

solatic 10y ago

> Young people shouldn't feel the need to withdraw and create their own subcultures to gain a sense of belonging or security. We should be incorporating them into society, giving them a sense of purpose and belonging, and equipping them to make meaningful contributions. None of that matters when you're a teenager. A large part of puberty is establishing identity and a unique sense of self, in contrast to the sense of belonging to family and community that existed in a healthy childhood. And as for security - the trope that teenagers feel invincible exists for a reason, and not for a cultural one. Anytime society attempts to define what it means to make a "healthy" contribution, remember that it is society making that determination, and not the individual. Part of growing up is figuring out for yourself what kinds of decisions are healthy for you as an individual, and the job of parents and educators is to give the benefit of their experience as mentors and help guide young people into understanding whether or not the decisions they are making are actually healthy for them. Parents restricting their adolescent children to choices which are healthy for the parents/society (but not for the child) is ultimately one of the biggest ruptures of family relationships.