5 ms·

If you go read the study, there is a potentially rather severe experimental flaw. My wife has what seems to be fairly severe gluten intolerance, which shows up

If you go read the study, there is a potentially rather severe experimental flaw. My wife has what seems to be fairly severe gluten intolerance, which shows up approximately 3 days after she consumes even small amounts of glutinous. She had this for years before trying an elimination diet and discovering this effect. Please note that it shows up even if she does not know she has had gluten -- we sometimes are able to sort out ingredients after the fact, and if she has the reaction, it will show up if we look deep enough. The report says, the test was done by rotating diet every 3 days. If my wife were in the study, her reaction would show up in the next food rotation. So to measure the effect we see with my wife, the experiment would need to measure reactions with approximately a 3 day delay- otherwise it would look like the sensitivity was random. The article does not indicate that this approach was taken so I wonder about error. As for my wife, her health improved dramatically after eliminating gluten from her diet, though it's pretty clear that she doesn't have ciliac. Perhaps it's something else in the gluten containing foods (and not in other foods) besides gluten that's having this effect, but if so, avoiding gluten is a very good marker for whatever this gluten-containing-food substitute might be.

cpncrunch 10y ago
>if we look deep enough That could be the problem. Also youll always notice an improvement due to placebo.
torgoguys 10y ago
Confirmation bias can be a strong thing. And it affects us all. I'd suggest you rexamine to be sure that it or a similar cognitive bias is not at play, particularly given the wording you used above which is very suggestive of putting yourself in an ideal situation where such biases can work: >we sometimes are able to sort out ingredients after the fact, and if she has the reaction, it will show up if we look deep enough. Not saying she doesn't have an issue with gluten (I don't know you two so how the heck would I know?) but given she has symptoms of something you owe it to yourself to make sure you are addressing the correct root cause. EDIT: looks like cpncrunch's sibling comment is getting at the same thing, only I would not use the term "placebo" for what could be at play here.
- sk5t 10y ago
  It's interesting to consider that occasions of feeling good may not receive the same post hoc dietary scrutiny. Gluten is really hard to avoid entirely.
driverdan 10y ago
A 3 day delay doesn't make much sense. The gluten would be digested and out of her system by then. Has she been to a doctor?
- mrcnkoba 10y ago
  It's called the IgG intolerance and shows up after 24h-72h of eating food that one doesn't tolerate. The difference between intolerance and allergy (IgE) is that allergy shows up immediately.
  - Nomentatus 10y ago
    IgE allergies show up quickly - but many allergy (mast cell) reactions, are not IgE reactions and may take considerably longer to show up (for example, MCAS reactions generally peak in the middle of the night, unlike IgE reactions.) Our immune system is complex, IgE is just a tiny part of it. Some introductory reading: MCAS = Mast Cell Activation Syndrome MCAD (Mast Cell Activation Disorder) = MCAS or mastocytosis Good MCAS links here: http://strengthflexibilityhealtheds.com/2016/02/04/diagnosing-mast-cell-activation-syndrome-mcas-update-and-diagnosis-confirmation/ http://strengthflexibilityhealtheds.com/2016/02/04/diagnosin... http://www.mastattack.org/2014/10/mcad-general-information-public/ http://www.mastattack.org/2014/10/mcad-general-information-p... http://evilmastcells.com/ http://evilmastcells.com/ http://www.jacionline.org/article/S0091-6749(14)02927-3/fulltext http://www.jacionline.org/article/S0091-6749(14)02927-3/full... Dr. Anne Maitland’s presentation on Allergies & Mast Cell Activation Syndrome in EDS Patients. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ktFdr-9rpIM&feature=youtu.be https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ktFdr-9rpIM&feature=youtu.be https://mastcellblog.wordpress.com/mastcellguide/ https://mastcellblog.wordpress.com/mastcellguide/
- timthelion 10y ago
  It isn't necessarilly that unresonable. For example, when a person takes allergy shots (alergens injected directly into the veins) there will be soreness and swelling days after the injection. By similar logic, a buffer over-run that doesn't cause your program to crash should cause no issues once the data that was being processed at the time has been freed from memory.
timthelion 10y ago
Yes, 3 days is way to short... I find it infuriating how arrogant and counter-logical American nutritionists are on this issue. They believe that any allergy will show up if you merely put a piece of food in your mouth, and do so almost instantly. For them, the oral challenge is a golden test which always works: https://www.foodallergy.org/diagnosis-and-testing/oral-food-challenge https://www.foodallergy.org/diagnosis-and-testing/oral-food-... "If you have no symptoms, food allergy can be ruled out." Some of this is obstinate pendanticism about what the word allergy means, but mostly it is just arrogance and refusal to understand reality and logic. I for example, will throw up in the evening if I eat a large portion of barley for lunch. Obviously, I shouldn't eat barley and my European doctors have no trouble understanding that. But according to American medicine, there is no problem since I obviously pass the oral challenge for barley.
- greglindahl 10y ago
  Do you know what the words "allergy" and "sensitivity" mean? They are being used as jargon by medical professionals, and it's not clear to me that you're using the words the way they do.
in_cahoots 10y ago
Your own study has a pretty severe flaw as well, namely confirmation bias. To do this better you need to set a fixed time period in which you will look for gluten consumption and record everything she eats. Then every so often you (the partner) looks back X days to see if she's eaten gluten. The key is, you can't know ahead of time whether she had a reaction, which is tricky I know. The way you're doing it, you would find the same results if she she consumes gluten on a semi-regular basis unknowingly but has no allergy. You're only looking when you expect to find something, which is guaranteed to skew the results.
- ysavir 10y ago
  Ironically, all the posts calling confirmation bias are, themselves, probably the result of confirmation bias.
  - torgoguys 10y ago
    >Ironically, all the posts calling confirmation bias are, themselves, probably the result of confirmation bias. Have a look at my comment (the first reply flagging this as possibly the result of confirmation bias). In what what does it sound to you like it could be the result of confirmation bias? I really want to know your thinking on that. I try to actively attack such biases as best I can, but as I even mention in that comment, I understand that they affect us all. I'm just not seeing it here, though, so please tell me what you think I'm overlooking.
    - Nomentatus 10y ago
      He's claiming a common lag reaction exists, that does exist. For example, the lectins in oatmeal are known to cause immune reactions with as much as a 3-day lag (common for our immune reactions in general, of course) if the oatmeal is not cooked for long enough. When did you last get a flu only an hour after exposure to a virus? Lag is common (not uniform) in our immune system reactions, which encompass a lot more than IgE reactions.
      - 10y ago
appleflaxen 10y ago
Your criticism of a randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled study is essentially "but it doesn't fit my own (unblinded, uncontrolled) anecdote". You offer an edge case that was not tested by the study. Your criticism is constructive/relevant, but there is always some area of our understanding that the experiment doesn't reach... basically saying "here is a different but similar hypothesis that was not tested by the trial". Ok; fair enough. But in the eyes of most readers, this data set generated by an insanely tight scientific design suggests that the optimal allocation might lie in a different direction of research for the individuals suffering these symptoms. Interestingly: you can perform your own blinded experiment. If I were in your position, I would want to know whether my wife and I were planning our lives around a superstition. The way to answer that: an n-of-1 blinded clinical trial. It's a fair amount of work, but not as much as gluten avoidance, and would answer the question of your own circumstances better than any generalized scientific result from the literature.

cpncrunch 10y ago

>if we look deep enough That could be the problem. Also youll always notice an improvement due to placebo.

torgoguys 10y ago

Confirmation bias can be a strong thing. And it affects us all. I'd suggest you rexamine to be sure that it or a similar cognitive bias is not at play, particularly given the wording you used above which is very suggestive of putting yourself in an ideal situation where such biases can work: >we sometimes are able to sort out ingredients after the fact, and if she has the reaction, it will show up if we look deep enough. Not saying she doesn't have an issue with gluten (I don't know you two so how the heck would I know?) but given she has symptoms of something you owe it to yourself to make sure you are addressing the correct root cause. EDIT: looks like cpncrunch's sibling comment is getting at the same thing, only I would not use the term "placebo" for what could be at play here.

sk5t 10y ago
It's interesting to consider that occasions of feeling good may not receive the same post hoc dietary scrutiny. Gluten is really hard to avoid entirely.

driverdan 10y ago

A 3 day delay doesn't make much sense. The gluten would be digested and out of her system by then. Has she been to a doctor?

mrcnkoba 10y ago
It's called the IgG intolerance and shows up after 24h-72h of eating food that one doesn't tolerate. The difference between intolerance and allergy (IgE) is that allergy shows up immediately.
- Nomentatus 10y ago
  IgE allergies show up quickly - but many allergy (mast cell) reactions, are not IgE reactions and may take considerably longer to show up (for example, MCAS reactions generally peak in the middle of the night, unlike IgE reactions.) Our immune system is complex, IgE is just a tiny part of it. Some introductory reading: MCAS = Mast Cell Activation Syndrome MCAD (Mast Cell Activation Disorder) = MCAS or mastocytosis Good MCAS links here: http://strengthflexibilityhealtheds.com/2016/02/04/diagnosing-mast-cell-activation-syndrome-mcas-update-and-diagnosis-confirmation/ http://strengthflexibilityhealtheds.com/2016/02/04/diagnosin... http://www.mastattack.org/2014/10/mcad-general-information-public/ http://www.mastattack.org/2014/10/mcad-general-information-p... http://evilmastcells.com/ http://evilmastcells.com/ http://www.jacionline.org/article/S0091-6749(14)02927-3/fulltext http://www.jacionline.org/article/S0091-6749(14)02927-3/full... Dr. Anne Maitland’s presentation on Allergies & Mast Cell Activation Syndrome in EDS Patients. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ktFdr-9rpIM&feature=youtu.be https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ktFdr-9rpIM&feature=youtu.be https://mastcellblog.wordpress.com/mastcellguide/ https://mastcellblog.wordpress.com/mastcellguide/
timthelion 10y ago
It isn't necessarilly that unresonable. For example, when a person takes allergy shots (alergens injected directly into the veins) there will be soreness and swelling days after the injection. By similar logic, a buffer over-run that doesn't cause your program to crash should cause no issues once the data that was being processed at the time has been freed from memory.

timthelion 10y ago

Yes, 3 days is way to short... I find it infuriating how arrogant and counter-logical American nutritionists are on this issue. They believe that any allergy will show up if you merely put a piece of food in your mouth, and do so almost instantly. For them, the oral challenge is a golden test which always works: https://www.foodallergy.org/diagnosis-and-testing/oral-food-challenge https://www.foodallergy.org/diagnosis-and-testing/oral-food-... "If you have no symptoms, food allergy can be ruled out." Some of this is obstinate pendanticism about what the word allergy means, but mostly it is just arrogance and refusal to understand reality and logic. I for example, will throw up in the evening if I eat a large portion of barley for lunch. Obviously, I shouldn't eat barley and my European doctors have no trouble understanding that. But according to American medicine, there is no problem since I obviously pass the oral challenge for barley.

greglindahl 10y ago
Do you know what the words "allergy" and "sensitivity" mean? They are being used as jargon by medical professionals, and it's not clear to me that you're using the words the way they do.

in_cahoots 10y ago

Your own study has a pretty severe flaw as well, namely confirmation bias. To do this better you need to set a fixed time period in which you will look for gluten consumption and record everything she eats. Then every so often you (the partner) looks back X days to see if she's eaten gluten. The key is, you can't know ahead of time whether she had a reaction, which is tricky I know. The way you're doing it, you would find the same results if she she consumes gluten on a semi-regular basis unknowingly but has no allergy. You're only looking when you expect to find something, which is guaranteed to skew the results.

ysavir 10y ago
Ironically, all the posts calling confirmation bias are, themselves, probably the result of confirmation bias.
- torgoguys 10y ago
  >Ironically, all the posts calling confirmation bias are, themselves, probably the result of confirmation bias. Have a look at my comment (the first reply flagging this as possibly the result of confirmation bias). In what what does it sound to you like it could be the result of confirmation bias? I really want to know your thinking on that. I try to actively attack such biases as best I can, but as I even mention in that comment, I understand that they affect us all. I'm just not seeing it here, though, so please tell me what you think I'm overlooking.
  - Nomentatus 10y ago
    He's claiming a common lag reaction exists, that does exist. For example, the lectins in oatmeal are known to cause immune reactions with as much as a 3-day lag (common for our immune reactions in general, of course) if the oatmeal is not cooked for long enough. When did you last get a flu only an hour after exposure to a virus? Lag is common (not uniform) in our immune system reactions, which encompass a lot more than IgE reactions.
    - 10y ago

appleflaxen 10y ago

Your criticism of a randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled study is essentially "but it doesn't fit my own (unblinded, uncontrolled) anecdote". You offer an edge case that was not tested by the study. Your criticism is constructive/relevant, but there is always some area of our understanding that the experiment doesn't reach... basically saying "here is a different but similar hypothesis that was not tested by the trial". Ok; fair enough. But in the eyes of most readers, this data set generated by an insanely tight scientific design suggests that the optimal allocation might lie in a different direction of research for the individuals suffering these symptoms. Interestingly: you can perform your own blinded experiment. If I were in your position, I would want to know whether my wife and I were planning our lives around a superstition. The way to answer that: an n-of-1 blinded clinical trial. It's a fair amount of work, but not as much as gluten avoidance, and would answer the question of your own circumstances better than any generalized scientific result from the literature.