4 ms·

As the Wikipedia article says, "Many MTAs perform the function of an MSA as well." I was looking at the article about MTAs [0], in which the diagram does not bo

by extra88 10y ago

As the Wikipedia article says, "Many MTAs perform the function of an MSA as well." I was looking at the article about MTAs [0], in which the diagram does not bother showing the sending MUA connecting to a distinct MSA. My MUA would not be rejected by the destination host if the recipient uses the same host as me. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Message_transfer_agent https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Message_transfer_agent

sedachv 10y ago
> My MUA would not be rejected by the destination host if the recipient uses the same host as me. Your MUA would be rejected if it acted as an MTA and connected on port 25 without authenticating. "Using the same host as me" is the case because the mail server knows that it is "your host" because your MUA is connecting to your email server's MSA using SMTP AUTH on port 587 or 465.
- extra88 10y ago
  Well now you're moving goalposts, qualifying connections by port and authentication. I'm sure what you write is true of most ISPs and major email service providers but there are still SMTP servers in the world that don't require all MUAs to make authenticated connections; there's at least one at my university.
  - loup-vaillant 10y ago
    They don't require authentication because they only accept relay requests from within the university network. Otherwise they'd be an open relay, and those tend to relay spam as soon as spammer spot them, then they get blacklisted by most spam filters. In any case, this doesn't affect my main point: by using those, you still don't send your email yourself. In my book, "sending your own email" means you operate your own mail server, without using any third party relay (not Gmail's, not your ISP's). I'm personally halfway there: I have root access to a virtual machine on the cloud (gandi.net), and configured it to relay my email for me. Next step would be to have physical control, but I kinda abandoned that idea when I learned that residential IPs are blacklisted (Hotmail even made it an explicit policy, it won't even appear in the recipient's spam folder).
    - extra88 10y ago
      > In my book, "sending your own email" means you operate your own mail server Virtually no one else reads that book. To everyone else, the user operating the MUA is sending their own email.
      - sedachv 10y ago
        If you use Gmail via webmail at https://mail.google.com https://mail.google.com or have a MUA like smtpmail.el in Emacs connect to smtp.gmail.com, Gmail is still sending your mail.
        cwyers 10y ago
        This is like saying that unless you own your own post office, you're not sending your mail, the US Postal Service is. Nobody talks like that.
        loup-vaillant 10y ago
        We trust the postal office to act as a reliable dumb pipe. Most email services are far from that: they filter inbound email in a way you have little control of. They spy inbound and outbound mail, and use that information to send you ads. Also, they control your right to send and receive email: if your account is terminated for some reason (they reserve the right to, blah, blah), you cannot move to a new provider, or redirect inbound mail or nothing: they own your email address. Still think your send your own email? Fool.
        cwyers 10y ago
        I mean, if you want to make the point that e-mail is not secure, you can say "e-mail is not secure." That's a statement that actually makes sense. Your false pedantry isn't convincing anyone to agree with you, it just makes you sound like a crackpot.
        10y ago

by extra88 10y ago

sedachv 10y ago

> My MUA would not be rejected by the destination host if the recipient uses the same host as me. Your MUA would be rejected if it acted as an MTA and connected on port 25 without authenticating. "Using the same host as me" is the case because the mail server knows that it is "your host" because your MUA is connecting to your email server's MSA using SMTP AUTH on port 587 or 465.

extra88 10y ago
Well now you're moving goalposts, qualifying connections by port and authentication. I'm sure what you write is true of most ISPs and major email service providers but there are still SMTP servers in the world that don't require all MUAs to make authenticated connections; there's at least one at my university.
- loup-vaillant 10y ago
  They don't require authentication because they only accept relay requests from within the university network. Otherwise they'd be an open relay, and those tend to relay spam as soon as spammer spot them, then they get blacklisted by most spam filters. In any case, this doesn't affect my main point: by using those, you still don't send your email yourself. In my book, "sending your own email" means you operate your own mail server, without using any third party relay (not Gmail's, not your ISP's). I'm personally halfway there: I have root access to a virtual machine on the cloud (gandi.net), and configured it to relay my email for me. Next step would be to have physical control, but I kinda abandoned that idea when I learned that residential IPs are blacklisted (Hotmail even made it an explicit policy, it won't even appear in the recipient's spam folder).
  - extra88 10y ago
    > In my book, "sending your own email" means you operate your own mail server Virtually no one else reads that book. To everyone else, the user operating the MUA is sending their own email.
    - sedachv 10y ago
      If you use Gmail via webmail at https://mail.google.com https://mail.google.com or have a MUA like smtpmail.el in Emacs connect to smtp.gmail.com, Gmail is still sending your mail.
      - cwyers 10y ago
        This is like saying that unless you own your own post office, you're not sending your mail, the US Postal Service is. Nobody talks like that.
        loup-vaillant 10y ago
        We trust the postal office to act as a reliable dumb pipe. Most email services are far from that: they filter inbound email in a way you have little control of. They spy inbound and outbound mail, and use that information to send you ads. Also, they control your right to send and receive email: if your account is terminated for some reason (they reserve the right to, blah, blah), you cannot move to a new provider, or redirect inbound mail or nothing: they own your email address. Still think your send your own email? Fool.
        cwyers 10y ago
        I mean, if you want to make the point that e-mail is not secure, you can say "e-mail is not secure." That's a statement that actually makes sense. Your false pedantry isn't convincing anyone to agree with you, it just makes you sound like a crackpot.
        10y ago