4 ms·

I respect Bernie, and really admire his class and honestly. However I don't agreee with his economic and political ideology. A "hand-out" government would be ne

I respect Bernie, and really admire his class and honestly. However I don't agreee with his economic and political ideology. A "hand-out" government would be near disasterious for America. It goes against one of the core principles of being American, the ability and optimism to work your way up without limits. To start a company that can be successful at home and abroad without excess regulation, red-tape, and buracracy.

jressey 10y ago
I don't think you have a full understanding of Bernie's positions. "It goes against one of the core principles of being American, the ability to work your way up, without limits." is horseshit. Tell that to a child born in the inner-city with a single parent working 2 jobs and a garbage primary education.
- nodesocket 10y ago
  There are success stories that start like inner-city with a single parent working 2 jobs quite often. It is possible, very difficult yet possible. Thats the optimism, if you just give people handouts they lose incentive and drive.
  - eli_gottlieb 10y ago
    To talk about possibility without probability is magical thinking.
  - alpha_squared 10y ago
    > if you just give people handouts they lose incentive and drive Is there any evidence of this? I see this argument used a lot to dissuade from the "handouts" thing and for not helping people. Don't non-profits technically receive handouts? Aren't grants technically handouts? A handout, as I understand it, is money given that isn't meant to be paid back. I think a good portion of handouts already exist, it's just easier to justify not giving handouts to people that are societally (or personally) perceived as inferior because it's easy to not empathize with their situation.
    - mcbruiser1 10y ago
      yes, look at the wealth attrition rate. most wealth is lost by the third generation because of lack of responsibility and entitlement.
      - alpha_squared 10y ago
        > most wealth is lost by the third generation because of lack of responsibility and entitlement. Can you cite any of these claims? I'd like to understand this a little better.
bluehazed 10y ago
But "ability and optimism" doesn't make it any easier to work your way up in America.
maxander 10y ago
"the ability and optimism to work your way up without limits" is absolutely the classic American ideal, but it requires that everyone is given half a chance. If you're too poor to go to college, or can't access treatment for a debilitating illness, or subjected to racist/homophobic/whatever discrimination, you've already lost out on the American dream. Compare the "basic resources required to start working your way up" to Sanders' planned "handouts" and you'll quickly realize they match up very well.
- mcbruiser1 10y ago
  yeah, life isn't fair and never will be. deal with it.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
  - maxander 10y ago
    As it happens, I was born in a well-to-do family, given preposterously easy access to education and healthcare, and now make plenty of money in a job that I like doing. And yet I'm still capable of caring, at least ideologically, about the less fortunate. Life isn't fair and perhaps it never will be, but if you don't want it to be fair something is wrong with you.
    - eat-a-dick 10y ago
      Fuck the less fortunate. Nobody is entitled to anything. They can eat the crumbs off the bottom of my jack boots.
baursak 10y ago
> the ability and optimism to work your way up without limits Kind of like Trump did? Or the current generation of Walton family? Anyway, I thought this was short and to the point on this subject: https://brightside.me/article/what-you-should-think-about-before-you-judge-others-10155/ https://brightside.me/article/what-you-should-think-about-be...
- nodesocket 10y ago
  Larry Ellison was born in Brooklyn, NY to a single mother, Ellison was raised by his aunt and uncle in Chicago who were quite poor. Howard Schultz (Starbucks CEO), Sean John, Oprah Winfey, Jay-Z, do you want me to continue naming people who come from hard positions with little to no money and the inner-city and made it on a grand scale?
  - baursak 10y ago
    > do you want me to continue naming people who come from hard positions with little to no money and the inner-city and made it on a grand scale? Yes, please continue. I'd like a large enough sample to dig into.
    - nodesocket 10y ago
      Google, or go talk to successful CEOs. You will be surprised how many come from hard backgrounds, difficult early lives, and financial hardship.
      - baursak 10y ago
        I googled. What I got was something like "These 11 rich guys grew up poor". Out of 300M population, correct?
HoppedUpMenace 10y ago
I definitely agree with this. I like the guy, seriously genuine and far from corrupt. However, offering "free" anything doesn't solve anything and I don't believe neither he or his supporters can see, nor do they want to see, the bigger picture of such policies.

jressey 10y ago

I don't think you have a full understanding of Bernie's positions. "It goes against one of the core principles of being American, the ability to work your way up, without limits." is horseshit. Tell that to a child born in the inner-city with a single parent working 2 jobs and a garbage primary education.

nodesocket 10y ago
There are success stories that start like inner-city with a single parent working 2 jobs quite often. It is possible, very difficult yet possible. Thats the optimism, if you just give people handouts they lose incentive and drive.
- eli_gottlieb 10y ago
  To talk about possibility without probability is magical thinking.
- alpha_squared 10y ago
  > if you just give people handouts they lose incentive and drive Is there any evidence of this? I see this argument used a lot to dissuade from the "handouts" thing and for not helping people. Don't non-profits technically receive handouts? Aren't grants technically handouts? A handout, as I understand it, is money given that isn't meant to be paid back. I think a good portion of handouts already exist, it's just easier to justify not giving handouts to people that are societally (or personally) perceived as inferior because it's easy to not empathize with their situation.
  - mcbruiser1 10y ago
    yes, look at the wealth attrition rate. most wealth is lost by the third generation because of lack of responsibility and entitlement.
    - alpha_squared 10y ago
      > most wealth is lost by the third generation because of lack of responsibility and entitlement. Can you cite any of these claims? I'd like to understand this a little better.

bluehazed 10y ago

But "ability and optimism" doesn't make it any easier to work your way up in America.

maxander 10y ago

"the ability and optimism to work your way up without limits" is absolutely the classic American ideal, but it requires that everyone is given half a chance. If you're too poor to go to college, or can't access treatment for a debilitating illness, or subjected to racist/homophobic/whatever discrimination, you've already lost out on the American dream. Compare the "basic resources required to start working your way up" to Sanders' planned "handouts" and you'll quickly realize they match up very well.

mcbruiser1 10y ago
yeah, life isn't fair and never will be. deal with it.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- maxander 10y ago
  As it happens, I was born in a well-to-do family, given preposterously easy access to education and healthcare, and now make plenty of money in a job that I like doing. And yet I'm still capable of caring, at least ideologically, about the less fortunate. Life isn't fair and perhaps it never will be, but if you don't want it to be fair something is wrong with you.
  - eat-a-dick 10y ago
    Fuck the less fortunate. Nobody is entitled to anything. They can eat the crumbs off the bottom of my jack boots.

baursak 10y ago

> the ability and optimism to work your way up without limits Kind of like Trump did? Or the current generation of Walton family? Anyway, I thought this was short and to the point on this subject: https://brightside.me/article/what-you-should-think-about-before-you-judge-others-10155/ https://brightside.me/article/what-you-should-think-about-be...

nodesocket 10y ago
Larry Ellison was born in Brooklyn, NY to a single mother, Ellison was raised by his aunt and uncle in Chicago who were quite poor. Howard Schultz (Starbucks CEO), Sean John, Oprah Winfey, Jay-Z, do you want me to continue naming people who come from hard positions with little to no money and the inner-city and made it on a grand scale?
- baursak 10y ago
  > do you want me to continue naming people who come from hard positions with little to no money and the inner-city and made it on a grand scale? Yes, please continue. I'd like a large enough sample to dig into.
  - nodesocket 10y ago
    Google, or go talk to successful CEOs. You will be surprised how many come from hard backgrounds, difficult early lives, and financial hardship.
    - baursak 10y ago
      I googled. What I got was something like "These 11 rich guys grew up poor". Out of 300M population, correct?

HoppedUpMenace 10y ago

I definitely agree with this. I like the guy, seriously genuine and far from corrupt. However, offering "free" anything doesn't solve anything and I don't believe neither he or his supporters can see, nor do they want to see, the bigger picture of such policies.