5 ms·

I'm not fan of the current immigration system, but it seems like "looking up info on undocumented immigrants" is no better or worse than any other criminal data

by muninn_ 10y ago

I'm not fan of the current immigration system, but it seems like "looking up info on undocumented immigrants" is no better or worse than any other criminal database use. Being here illegally is, well, ya know, illegal. We can discuss whether or not that should be illegal or not, but it currently is. Let's not act like it isn't.

marricks 10y ago
The Republican controlled house, Senate, executive branch, and majority of state governments highlights how important it is that people and companies resist, and that we support groups that do. Casting it off as, "it's just a job someone has to do it", is a pretty weak defence.
mikeash 10y ago
They're not criminals until they're found guilty in court. Imagine if the local police were able to use CIA records, including phone and location data, to prosecute you for, say stealing a car. Entering the country without permission is illegal, but let's not act like it's a crime so heinous that law enforcement should be exempt from due process and warrants and such when prosecuting people for it. Keep in mind that ICE does sometimes inadvertently deport US citizens, and that there is no central database of who is or is not a US citizen, nor any single canonical way to prove citizenship.
- muninn_ 10y ago
  Well I mean, it seems pretty much case closed that they are criminals if they are undocumented immigrants. I'm not advocating that law enforcement should be exempt from due process, but if you're not a citizen I'm not sure what rights you're entitled to here? It's a bit messy, but it's very close to the bottom of the list of police actions I'm worried about. I'm way more concerned about things like the disproportionate amount of African Americans locked up than the due process of people who are here illegally. Every country on the planet has borders that are enforced. Every country has immigration policies that just be followed. Every country that finds immigrants that are there undocumented (illegally) deports them and uses databases with public/private cooperation to do so. There are ways to prove citizenship. Easily obtainable documents like a social security card, passport, birth certificate, etc... . There is no real issue with ICE deporting Americans. None whatsoever.
  - op00to 10y ago
    There are issues with CBP personnel harassing Americans. I have a constitutional right to freely travel around the country without fear of search or seizure if I'm not suspected of a crime. CBP personnel camp out in airplane jetways ambushing law-abiding American citizens who have no choice but to submit to an illegal and improper search of their personal papers to prove their citizenship. Any freedom loving citizen of the United States should resist this bullshit.
    - fav_collector 10y ago
      > improper search of their personal papers to prove their citizenship this is pretty sensationalized. It's very rational to request proof of citizenship before allowing entry to a country
      - mikeash 10y ago
        I doubt that "camp out in airplane jetways" is describing border controls entering the US. Probably something more like this: http://sfist.com/2017/02/24/border_patrol_agents_stop_and_check.php http://sfist.com/2017/02/24/border_patrol_agents_stop_and_ch...
      - logfromblammo 10y ago
        Rational or not, in the US, we have placed upon our officers the burden of having a reasonable suspicion (one that can be later explained to a court) before requiring anything of a detained person. As such, if I am a U.S. citizen, and say so, the burden is then upon the officer to identify a reason to suspect that I am not actually a citizen before requiring that I submit to additional questioning or produce documentation. We desire that our cops be required to have an actual reason before hassling us. That form of behavior was what goaded our forebears into shooting at the king's men. At the risk of inciting an opinionated pissing contest, I'd say that meekly presenting your official papers to a government authority is reason to suspect that you are not an American, and that loudly arguing with the officer (especially when relying on spurious legal grounds) is almost as good as stapling a notarized copy of your birth certificate to your forehead. I think a simple majority of Americans would probably prefer the government to treat the public more respectfully and courteously--citizens or not--even if it means some dangerous people will find it easier to commit crimes. I may be mistaken in this perception, but I wish for it to be true. It's a crying shame that people are deciding not to visit because our government is acting like a paranoid brute and that I can't find any rational grounds to disagree with their decisions to stay away.
- ng12 10y ago
  Is your argument that ICE has data they're not supposed to have? Part of ICE's job is to enforce immigration rules. Let's work on your analogy here: > Imagine if the local police were able to use CIA records, including phone and location data, to prosecute you for, say stealing a car. Imagine if the local police were able to use their plate reader software to identify and prosecute people who had stolen cars?
  - mikeash 10y ago
    Right, ICE's job is to enforce immigration rules, so they're getting phone and location records from the CIA without a warrant, and that's OK because...? Police are allowed to use license plate readers because that's considered to be in public view. Since the CIA is separate from both ICE and the local police, let's just use CIA in the analogy too.
    - ng12 10y ago
      > ICE's job is to enforce immigration rules, so they're getting phone and location records from the CIA without a warrant Do you have a source for this? It's not clear to me that this is the case -- and if it is we are totally screwed whether Palantir is involved or not.
      - mikeash 10y ago
        Maybe I'm assuming too much, but given the broad language and complete lack of mention of judicial oversight, it seems like it. This document about how ICE uses ICM, a similar system that works with data from other agencies, only mentions warrants in the context of the database holding information about them, or certain information in the database being obtained using them: https://www.dhs.gov/sites/default/files/publications/privacy-pia-ice-icm-june2016.pdf https://www.dhs.gov/sites/default/files/publications/privacy...
op00to 10y ago
Except undocumented immigration(·) is actually not a crime. You don't go to jail when you're caught by ICE. There's no criminal trial. You're sent out of the country. So, it's not really logical to apply the analogy of criminal database use. (·) Edit: Unlawful entry (border hopping) is a crime, punishable by $250 in civil penalties, but no jail time. Essentially a jaywalking ticket. Unlawful presence is not a crime.
- muninn_ 10y ago
  Well in order to be present they had to enter unlawfully. So pretty clear that it's illegal.
  - dragonwriter 10y ago
    > Well in order to be present they had to enter unlawfully Wrong, you can be present unlawfully after completely lawful entry. > So pretty clear that it's illegal. Unlawful presence is obviously illegal, but it is not criminal. The two words do not mean the same thing.
    - poikniok 10y ago
      But you can't be present lawfully after unlawful entry, that is the point.
      - dragonwriter 10y ago
        No, the claim was "in order to be present they had to enter unlawfully"; that claim is what is under discussion and it is factually untrue. What you present is the converse of the claim under discussion. And, for that matter, is also false. A lawful permanent resident alien who enters (say, after a vacation abroad) other than at a designated border crossing is not unlawfully present, but has committed the offense of illegal entry.
- dragonwriter 10y ago
  > (·) Edit: Unlawful entry (border hopping) is a crime, punishable by $250 in civil penalties. No, it's a crime punishable by imprisonment for up to 6 months and/or fine of up to $5,000 (as a class B misdemeanor) for a first offense and 2 years imprisonment and/or fine of up to $500,000 (as a felony) for a subsequent offense. It is also a civil offense with civil penalties of $50-$250 the first time a civil penalty is imposed, and double that subsequently. See 8 USC § 1325(a) for the crime, associated imprisonment, and reference to fines under title 18, and § 1325(b) for the civil offense; 18 USC § 3559 for classification of crimes based on maximum imprisonment, and § 3571 for fines based on classification of crimes.

by muninn_ 10y ago

marricks 10y ago

The Republican controlled house, Senate, executive branch, and majority of state governments highlights how important it is that people and companies resist, and that we support groups that do. Casting it off as, "it's just a job someone has to do it", is a pretty weak defence.

mikeash 10y ago

They're not criminals until they're found guilty in court. Imagine if the local police were able to use CIA records, including phone and location data, to prosecute you for, say stealing a car. Entering the country without permission is illegal, but let's not act like it's a crime so heinous that law enforcement should be exempt from due process and warrants and such when prosecuting people for it. Keep in mind that ICE does sometimes inadvertently deport US citizens, and that there is no central database of who is or is not a US citizen, nor any single canonical way to prove citizenship.

muninn_ 10y ago
Well I mean, it seems pretty much case closed that they are criminals if they are undocumented immigrants. I'm not advocating that law enforcement should be exempt from due process, but if you're not a citizen I'm not sure what rights you're entitled to here? It's a bit messy, but it's very close to the bottom of the list of police actions I'm worried about. I'm way more concerned about things like the disproportionate amount of African Americans locked up than the due process of people who are here illegally. Every country on the planet has borders that are enforced. Every country has immigration policies that just be followed. Every country that finds immigrants that are there undocumented (illegally) deports them and uses databases with public/private cooperation to do so. There are ways to prove citizenship. Easily obtainable documents like a social security card, passport, birth certificate, etc... . There is no real issue with ICE deporting Americans. None whatsoever.
- op00to 10y ago
  There are issues with CBP personnel harassing Americans. I have a constitutional right to freely travel around the country without fear of search or seizure if I'm not suspected of a crime. CBP personnel camp out in airplane jetways ambushing law-abiding American citizens who have no choice but to submit to an illegal and improper search of their personal papers to prove their citizenship. Any freedom loving citizen of the United States should resist this bullshit.
  - fav_collector 10y ago
    > improper search of their personal papers to prove their citizenship this is pretty sensationalized. It's very rational to request proof of citizenship before allowing entry to a country
    - mikeash 10y ago
      I doubt that "camp out in airplane jetways" is describing border controls entering the US. Probably something more like this: http://sfist.com/2017/02/24/border_patrol_agents_stop_and_check.php http://sfist.com/2017/02/24/border_patrol_agents_stop_and_ch...
    - logfromblammo 10y ago
      Rational or not, in the US, we have placed upon our officers the burden of having a reasonable suspicion (one that can be later explained to a court) before requiring anything of a detained person. As such, if I am a U.S. citizen, and say so, the burden is then upon the officer to identify a reason to suspect that I am not actually a citizen before requiring that I submit to additional questioning or produce documentation. We desire that our cops be required to have an actual reason before hassling us. That form of behavior was what goaded our forebears into shooting at the king's men. At the risk of inciting an opinionated pissing contest, I'd say that meekly presenting your official papers to a government authority is reason to suspect that you are not an American, and that loudly arguing with the officer (especially when relying on spurious legal grounds) is almost as good as stapling a notarized copy of your birth certificate to your forehead. I think a simple majority of Americans would probably prefer the government to treat the public more respectfully and courteously--citizens or not--even if it means some dangerous people will find it easier to commit crimes. I may be mistaken in this perception, but I wish for it to be true. It's a crying shame that people are deciding not to visit because our government is acting like a paranoid brute and that I can't find any rational grounds to disagree with their decisions to stay away.
ng12 10y ago
Is your argument that ICE has data they're not supposed to have? Part of ICE's job is to enforce immigration rules. Let's work on your analogy here: > Imagine if the local police were able to use CIA records, including phone and location data, to prosecute you for, say stealing a car. Imagine if the local police were able to use their plate reader software to identify and prosecute people who had stolen cars?
- mikeash 10y ago
  Right, ICE's job is to enforce immigration rules, so they're getting phone and location records from the CIA without a warrant, and that's OK because...? Police are allowed to use license plate readers because that's considered to be in public view. Since the CIA is separate from both ICE and the local police, let's just use CIA in the analogy too.
  - ng12 10y ago
    > ICE's job is to enforce immigration rules, so they're getting phone and location records from the CIA without a warrant Do you have a source for this? It's not clear to me that this is the case -- and if it is we are totally screwed whether Palantir is involved or not.
    - mikeash 10y ago
      Maybe I'm assuming too much, but given the broad language and complete lack of mention of judicial oversight, it seems like it. This document about how ICE uses ICM, a similar system that works with data from other agencies, only mentions warrants in the context of the database holding information about them, or certain information in the database being obtained using them: https://www.dhs.gov/sites/default/files/publications/privacy-pia-ice-icm-june2016.pdf https://www.dhs.gov/sites/default/files/publications/privacy...

op00to 10y ago

Except undocumented immigration(·) is actually not a crime. You don't go to jail when you're caught by ICE. There's no criminal trial. You're sent out of the country. So, it's not really logical to apply the analogy of criminal database use. (·) Edit: Unlawful entry (border hopping) is a crime, punishable by $250 in civil penalties, but no jail time. Essentially a jaywalking ticket. Unlawful presence is not a crime.

muninn_ 10y ago
Well in order to be present they had to enter unlawfully. So pretty clear that it's illegal.
- dragonwriter 10y ago
  > Well in order to be present they had to enter unlawfully Wrong, you can be present unlawfully after completely lawful entry. > So pretty clear that it's illegal. Unlawful presence is obviously illegal, but it is not criminal. The two words do not mean the same thing.
  - poikniok 10y ago
    But you can't be present lawfully after unlawful entry, that is the point.
    - dragonwriter 10y ago
      No, the claim was "in order to be present they had to enter unlawfully"; that claim is what is under discussion and it is factually untrue. What you present is the converse of the claim under discussion. And, for that matter, is also false. A lawful permanent resident alien who enters (say, after a vacation abroad) other than at a designated border crossing is not unlawfully present, but has committed the offense of illegal entry.
dragonwriter 10y ago
> (·) Edit: Unlawful entry (border hopping) is a crime, punishable by $250 in civil penalties. No, it's a crime punishable by imprisonment for up to 6 months and/or fine of up to $5,000 (as a class B misdemeanor) for a first offense and 2 years imprisonment and/or fine of up to $500,000 (as a felony) for a subsequent offense. It is also a civil offense with civil penalties of $50-$250 the first time a civil penalty is imposed, and double that subsequently. See 8 USC § 1325(a) for the crime, associated imprisonment, and reference to fines under title 18, and § 1325(b) for the civil offense; 18 USC § 3559 for classification of crimes based on maximum imprisonment, and § 3571 for fines based on classification of crimes.