11 ms·

Honestly a bit disturbing to see people coming out of the wood works to defend palantir. They've assisted NSA, and now they're using some skills to help agents

Honestly a bit disturbing to see people coming out of the wood works to defend palantir. They've assisted NSA, and now they're using some skills to help agents look up info on undocumented immigrants. Sure, we should be tackling the source of the problem, but enablers such as palantir should be taken to task too. It should be considered how active a role Thiel took in getting this to happen as a Trump ally, which this in turn benefits his company.

muninn_ 10y ago
I'm not fan of the current immigration system, but it seems like "looking up info on undocumented immigrants" is no better or worse than any other criminal database use. Being here illegally is, well, ya know, illegal. We can discuss whether or not that should be illegal or not, but it currently is. Let's not act like it isn't.
- marricks 10y ago
  The Republican controlled house, Senate, executive branch, and majority of state governments highlights how important it is that people and companies resist, and that we support groups that do. Casting it off as, "it's just a job someone has to do it", is a pretty weak defence.
- mikeash 10y ago
  They're not criminals until they're found guilty in court. Imagine if the local police were able to use CIA records, including phone and location data, to prosecute you for, say stealing a car. Entering the country without permission is illegal, but let's not act like it's a crime so heinous that law enforcement should be exempt from due process and warrants and such when prosecuting people for it. Keep in mind that ICE does sometimes inadvertently deport US citizens, and that there is no central database of who is or is not a US citizen, nor any single canonical way to prove citizenship.
  - muninn_ 10y ago
    Well I mean, it seems pretty much case closed that they are criminals if they are undocumented immigrants. I'm not advocating that law enforcement should be exempt from due process, but if you're not a citizen I'm not sure what rights you're entitled to here? It's a bit messy, but it's very close to the bottom of the list of police actions I'm worried about. I'm way more concerned about things like the disproportionate amount of African Americans locked up than the due process of people who are here illegally. Every country on the planet has borders that are enforced. Every country has immigration policies that just be followed. Every country that finds immigrants that are there undocumented (illegally) deports them and uses databases with public/private cooperation to do so. There are ways to prove citizenship. Easily obtainable documents like a social security card, passport, birth certificate, etc... . There is no real issue with ICE deporting Americans. None whatsoever.
    - op00to 10y ago
      There are issues with CBP personnel harassing Americans. I have a constitutional right to freely travel around the country without fear of search or seizure if I'm not suspected of a crime. CBP personnel camp out in airplane jetways ambushing law-abiding American citizens who have no choice but to submit to an illegal and improper search of their personal papers to prove their citizenship. Any freedom loving citizen of the United States should resist this bullshit.
      - fav_collector 10y ago
        > improper search of their personal papers to prove their citizenship this is pretty sensationalized. It's very rational to request proof of citizenship before allowing entry to a country
        mikeash 10y ago
        I doubt that "camp out in airplane jetways" is describing border controls entering the US. Probably something more like this: http://sfist.com/2017/02/24/border_patrol_agents_stop_and_check.php http://sfist.com/2017/02/24/border_patrol_agents_stop_and_ch...
- op00to 10y ago
  Except undocumented immigration(·) is actually not a crime. You don't go to jail when you're caught by ICE. There's no criminal trial. You're sent out of the country. So, it's not really logical to apply the analogy of criminal database use. (·) Edit: Unlawful entry (border hopping) is a crime, punishable by $250 in civil penalties, but no jail time. Essentially a jaywalking ticket. Unlawful presence is not a crime.
  - muninn_ 10y ago
    Well in order to be present they had to enter unlawfully. So pretty clear that it's illegal.
    - dragonwriter 10y ago
      > Well in order to be present they had to enter unlawfully Wrong, you can be present unlawfully after completely lawful entry. > So pretty clear that it's illegal. Unlawful presence is obviously illegal, but it is not criminal. The two words do not mean the same thing.
      - poikniok 10y ago
        But you can't be present lawfully after unlawful entry, that is the point.
        dragonwriter 10y ago
        No, the claim was "in order to be present they had to enter unlawfully"; that claim is what is under discussion and it is factually untrue. What you present is the converse of the claim under discussion. And, for that matter, is also false. A lawful permanent resident alien who enters (say, after a vacation abroad) other than at a designated border crossing is not unlawfully present, but has committed the offense of illegal entry.
  - dragonwriter 10y ago
    > (·) Edit: Unlawful entry (border hopping) is a crime, punishable by $250 in civil penalties. No, it's a crime punishable by imprisonment for up to 6 months and/or fine of up to $5,000 (as a class B misdemeanor) for a first offense and 2 years imprisonment and/or fine of up to $500,000 (as a felony) for a subsequent offense. It is also a civil offense with civil penalties of $50-$250 the first time a civil penalty is imposed, and double that subsequently. See 8 USC § 1325(a) for the crime, associated imprisonment, and reference to fines under title 18, and § 1325(b) for the civil offense; 18 USC § 3559 for classification of crimes based on maximum imprisonment, and § 3571 for fines based on classification of crimes.
67726e 10y ago
> Honestly a bit disturbing to see people coming out of the wood works to defend palantir. > They've assisted NSA, and now they're using some skills to help agents look up info on undocumented immigrants. I'm supposed to be outraged that a company is supplying software to help a government employee do their job in an efficient manner?
- vkou 10y ago
  If you believe the job is immoral, yes. IBM supplied computation systems to Nazi Germany, where they were used to carry out the murder of millions of people. Had it done so knowingly, its management should have been taken out back and shot, right alongside the other perpetrators.
  - 67726e 10y ago
    Deporting immigrants who decided to violate the law is in no way comparable to the systematic murder of millions of people. Get a grip.
  - jeff_petersen 10y ago
    As with every Nazi comparison with the current administration, this is neither helpful nor honest.
    - vkou 10y ago
      I have implied nothing of the sort. I have, however, implied that "Helping the government do its job" has no bearing on the morality of your actions. What the job is does.
      - AckSyn 10y ago
        It's intellectually dishonest to draw a comparison of IBM helping the Nazi's commit a genocidal action to the US government deporting illegal aliens, and then say "well I didn't _imply_ anything" Either that or you're being deliberately obtuse and are trolling.
pnathan 10y ago
> Honestly a bit disturbing to see people coming out of the wood works to defend palantir. It was a very sexy startup a while back. And success breeds friends.

muninn_ 10y ago

I'm not fan of the current immigration system, but it seems like "looking up info on undocumented immigrants" is no better or worse than any other criminal database use. Being here illegally is, well, ya know, illegal. We can discuss whether or not that should be illegal or not, but it currently is. Let's not act like it isn't.

marricks 10y ago
The Republican controlled house, Senate, executive branch, and majority of state governments highlights how important it is that people and companies resist, and that we support groups that do. Casting it off as, "it's just a job someone has to do it", is a pretty weak defence.
mikeash 10y ago
They're not criminals until they're found guilty in court. Imagine if the local police were able to use CIA records, including phone and location data, to prosecute you for, say stealing a car. Entering the country without permission is illegal, but let's not act like it's a crime so heinous that law enforcement should be exempt from due process and warrants and such when prosecuting people for it. Keep in mind that ICE does sometimes inadvertently deport US citizens, and that there is no central database of who is or is not a US citizen, nor any single canonical way to prove citizenship.
- muninn_ 10y ago
  Well I mean, it seems pretty much case closed that they are criminals if they are undocumented immigrants. I'm not advocating that law enforcement should be exempt from due process, but if you're not a citizen I'm not sure what rights you're entitled to here? It's a bit messy, but it's very close to the bottom of the list of police actions I'm worried about. I'm way more concerned about things like the disproportionate amount of African Americans locked up than the due process of people who are here illegally. Every country on the planet has borders that are enforced. Every country has immigration policies that just be followed. Every country that finds immigrants that are there undocumented (illegally) deports them and uses databases with public/private cooperation to do so. There are ways to prove citizenship. Easily obtainable documents like a social security card, passport, birth certificate, etc... . There is no real issue with ICE deporting Americans. None whatsoever.
  - op00to 10y ago
    There are issues with CBP personnel harassing Americans. I have a constitutional right to freely travel around the country without fear of search or seizure if I'm not suspected of a crime. CBP personnel camp out in airplane jetways ambushing law-abiding American citizens who have no choice but to submit to an illegal and improper search of their personal papers to prove their citizenship. Any freedom loving citizen of the United States should resist this bullshit.
    - fav_collector 10y ago
      > improper search of their personal papers to prove their citizenship this is pretty sensationalized. It's very rational to request proof of citizenship before allowing entry to a country
      - mikeash 10y ago
        I doubt that "camp out in airplane jetways" is describing border controls entering the US. Probably something more like this: http://sfist.com/2017/02/24/border_patrol_agents_stop_and_check.php http://sfist.com/2017/02/24/border_patrol_agents_stop_and_ch...
op00to 10y ago
Except undocumented immigration(·) is actually not a crime. You don't go to jail when you're caught by ICE. There's no criminal trial. You're sent out of the country. So, it's not really logical to apply the analogy of criminal database use. (·) Edit: Unlawful entry (border hopping) is a crime, punishable by $250 in civil penalties, but no jail time. Essentially a jaywalking ticket. Unlawful presence is not a crime.
- muninn_ 10y ago
  Well in order to be present they had to enter unlawfully. So pretty clear that it's illegal.
  - dragonwriter 10y ago
    > Well in order to be present they had to enter unlawfully Wrong, you can be present unlawfully after completely lawful entry. > So pretty clear that it's illegal. Unlawful presence is obviously illegal, but it is not criminal. The two words do not mean the same thing.
    - poikniok 10y ago
      But you can't be present lawfully after unlawful entry, that is the point.
      - dragonwriter 10y ago
        No, the claim was "in order to be present they had to enter unlawfully"; that claim is what is under discussion and it is factually untrue. What you present is the converse of the claim under discussion. And, for that matter, is also false. A lawful permanent resident alien who enters (say, after a vacation abroad) other than at a designated border crossing is not unlawfully present, but has committed the offense of illegal entry.
- dragonwriter 10y ago
  > (·) Edit: Unlawful entry (border hopping) is a crime, punishable by $250 in civil penalties. No, it's a crime punishable by imprisonment for up to 6 months and/or fine of up to $5,000 (as a class B misdemeanor) for a first offense and 2 years imprisonment and/or fine of up to $500,000 (as a felony) for a subsequent offense. It is also a civil offense with civil penalties of $50-$250 the first time a civil penalty is imposed, and double that subsequently. See 8 USC § 1325(a) for the crime, associated imprisonment, and reference to fines under title 18, and § 1325(b) for the civil offense; 18 USC § 3559 for classification of crimes based on maximum imprisonment, and § 3571 for fines based on classification of crimes.

67726e 10y ago

> Honestly a bit disturbing to see people coming out of the wood works to defend palantir. > They've assisted NSA, and now they're using some skills to help agents look up info on undocumented immigrants. I'm supposed to be outraged that a company is supplying software to help a government employee do their job in an efficient manner?

vkou 10y ago
If you believe the job is immoral, yes. IBM supplied computation systems to Nazi Germany, where they were used to carry out the murder of millions of people. Had it done so knowingly, its management should have been taken out back and shot, right alongside the other perpetrators.
- 67726e 10y ago
  Deporting immigrants who decided to violate the law is in no way comparable to the systematic murder of millions of people. Get a grip.
- jeff_petersen 10y ago
  As with every Nazi comparison with the current administration, this is neither helpful nor honest.
  - vkou 10y ago
    I have implied nothing of the sort. I have, however, implied that "Helping the government do its job" has no bearing on the morality of your actions. What the job is does.
    - AckSyn 10y ago
      It's intellectually dishonest to draw a comparison of IBM helping the Nazi's commit a genocidal action to the US government deporting illegal aliens, and then say "well I didn't _imply_ anything" Either that or you're being deliberately obtuse and are trolling.

pnathan 10y ago

> Honestly a bit disturbing to see people coming out of the wood works to defend palantir. It was a very sexy startup a while back. And success breeds friends.