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I'm confused by this. My brother has an office in downtown SLC near the Rio Grande building, and it's pretty clear when I visit him that there are hundreds of h

I'm confused by this. My brother has an office in downtown SLC near the Rio Grande building, and it's pretty clear when I visit him that there are hundreds of homeless people living in that neighborhood alone. Pioneer Park is also covered in homeless people. If that is less than 200 people either I don't understand what "homeless" means or something is... off. How does one define "chronic homelessness?" I really want it to be true. I have seen first hand how hard so many people work to help the homeless; through nonprofits, the government, and the LDS Church. But declaring "victory" over homelessness rings pretty hollow if you walk the streets of Salt Lake City.

Karunamon 10y ago
One thing that sticks in my mind after a business trip to SLC (SaltConf last year) were the ubiquitous red signs urging people to turn away panhandlers. If people actually take notice, I'd be willing to bet this results in the problem being hidden a lot more than it is in some other cities. The admittedly surface impression I got was that the city is hostile to the homeless.
- douche 10y ago
  I was very disappointed that ordinances to restrict panhandling in medians were overturned in Portland, ME in recent years. There's no need of that. If you are willing to work, there is always work to be done for a decent wage, (although possibly less than the absurd level minimum wage has climbed to).
  - bitJericho 10y ago
    The minimum wage nowadays is just outrageous. http://money.cnn.com/interactive/economy/minimum-wage-since-1938/ http://money.cnn.com/interactive/economy/minimum-wage-since-...
  - st3v3r 10y ago
    Anyone who claims the minimum wage level is absurd has clearly never tried to live on it.
    - douche 10y ago
      Last i checked they had increased the minimum wage beyond what trained heavy equipment operators were making. That is absurd, no matter how you slice it.
      - st3v3r 10y ago
        No, it's not. For one, other people having things worse off does not mean that certain people should not be trying to better themselves. For two, if that were true, then the heavy equipment operators should be asking for raises, as they now have the leverage to go to a less demanding job for more pay.
        lostlogin 10y ago
        How can someone earn less than the minimum while in work? Is the minimum not required to be paid? If that is the case, what is the minimum for?
      - InitialLastName 10y ago
        Do you mean absurd that trained heavy equipment operators are making so little?
    - ensignavenger 10y ago
      I have in the past lived for years off of far less than the Federal minimum wage. It helped that I was healthy and didn't have any medical expenses- but the ridiculous cost of health care is a different debate...
    - cryptarch 10y ago
      Are any of housing, hygeine products, food, clothing , transportation or internet expensive, or is it just healthcare costs that are out of control?
      - vacri 10y ago
        Food in the US is incredibly cheap. Not high quality at the cheap end, but incredibly cheap. Same with clothing.
- suresk 10y ago
  Doubtful. I used to work in downtown SLC and would get hit up for cash 5 or 6 times per day. Far more than when I've visited other cities like San Francisco or New York. Even in the suburbs, you've got people sitting at the Target parking lot exit begging for money. I don't think anyone pays attention to the signs.
ktRolster 10y ago
Not every homeless person is chronically homeless. A lot of homeless people have skills (so don't look down on them), but they're going through a rough time. After a while, they pick themselves up, go into rehab or whatever, and become non-homeless again.
- ekianjo 10y ago
  > Not every homeless person is chronically homeless. That's completely biased though. You can only know who is chronically homeless AFTER the fact. So this whole celebration of reducing chronic homelessness is more likely just a PR piece.
  - pmiller2 10y ago
    I don't know what you're saying here. The definition of "chronically homeless" is perfectly clear; it's just that you can't look at someone and say "yep, that person fits the definition."
  - Notre1 10y ago
    After what "fact"? That seems like a fairly straight-forward statistic based on a snapshot in time (e.g. when you do the survey): Has the person in question been: (a) living on the streets for more than a year, or four times in the past three years, and (b) has a "disabling condition" (e.g. serious mental illness, an addiction or a physical disability or illness)
  - Graphon1 10y ago
    > this whole celebration of reducing chronic homelessness is more likely just a PR piece. No... that's not a fair comment. We are measuring it. People are constantly going through rough patches and become homeless. In some cases, most cases, they get help "soon" and get into a home. In other cases, they don't. This article is about the latter cases. Your statement suggests that the efforts to reduce chronic homelessness compete with efforts to help the temporarily homeless. The article doesn't suggest that is the case.
theophrastus 10y ago
Having relatives in city government I have overheard that Utah's proud achievement was accomplished by "adjustments made to their demographic surveys". And that this was seen as a very economical solution to the problem.
- stevecalifornia 10y ago
  I feel like cynical hear-say like this adds nothing to the conversation. It just tries to smugly diminish good news with no proof.
  - eropple 10y ago
    It's also very likely true. http://www.aei.org/publication/on-utahs-91-percent-decrease-in-chronic-homelessness/ http://www.aei.org/publication/on-utahs-91-percent-decrease-...
    - stevecalifornia 10y ago
      Ok, great. Then post facts instead of "My family overheard..." I shouldn't have to call out hear-say to get more substantial data.
    - moosey 10y ago
      There is nothing in that analysis that suggests that the reductions aren't real. Quoting in "The Data" portion: > Figure 2 shows that, measured by its point-in-time counts, Utah experienced a less dramatic, but still impressive 71 percent decrease in chronic homelessness since 2005. Yet should we trust even the point-in-time counts? Yes. If you want to challenge them, go out and do point in time counts rather than suggest that someone is lying. In fact, challenging them in the manner that the writer is is fundamentally dishonest, suggesting again that research by its very nature shouldn't be trusted. > In fact, as Figure 3 shows, there were major drop-offs in chronic homelessness during two separate periods: 2009–10 and 2014–15. If not for these two periods, chronic homelessness in Utah would have increased over the past decade. Just because reductions appear during specific time periods during a research period does nothing to deny the fact that overall reductions occurred. This is like suggesting that a small uptick in violent crime means that crime hasn't reduced at all over the last several decades. The entire article is anti-science, as the AEI all too often is. If you want to challenge research, you don't do it by suggesting someone is lying, you do it by using the scientific method. AEI really doesn't do any of that, it is primarily there to challenge research to protect support for conservative ideals while making them seem as if they are well researched.
binxbolling 10y ago
FTFA: "In fact, Utah still has a substantial homeless problem. The overall homeless population is around 14,000. The chronically homeless, on the other hand, are a subset of the homeless population that is often the most vulnerable. These are people who have been living on the streets for more than a year, or four times in the past three years, and who have a "disabling condition" that might include serious mental illness, an addiction or a physical disability or illness."
broahmed 10y ago
_Chronic_ homelessness is what's been reduced. From the article: "As of 2015, the state can just about declare victory: The population of chronically homeless people has dropped by 91 percent." ... "In fact, Utah still has a substantial homeless problem. The overall homeless population is around 14,000." "The chronically homeless, on the other hand, are a subset of the homeless population that is often the most vulnerable. These are people who have been living on the streets for more than a year, or four times in the past three years, and who have a "disabling condition" that might include serious mental illness, an addiction or a physical disability or illness." ... "By implementing a model known as Housing First, Utah has reduced that number from nearly 2,000 people in 2005, to fewer than 200 now."
- TheGRS 10y ago
  Yes thank you, the article does contain a lot more info than just the headline. Homelessness is a more complex issue than it appears at the surface. There a many stages of homelessness and different demographics of it. A shelter I contribute to here in Portland focuses specifically on homeless families who have recently fell on hard times and tries to address getting them back on their feet and into sustainable jobs before they enter a vicious circle and are unable to get back into the system at all. I don't believe those families would have counted toward the chronic homeless number.
  - austenallred 10y ago
    Of course, but how is chronic defined and measured, and how has that changed historically? I've heard that the definition is ever-changing. I read the article
    - bluehawk 10y ago
      Did you really? The fifth paragraph defines it: "The chronically homeless, on the other hand, are a subset of the homeless population that is often the most vulnerable. These are people who have been living on the streets for more than a year, or four times in the past three years, and who have a "disabling condition" that might include serious mental illness, an addiction or a physical disability or illness."
nsnick 10y ago
Salt Lake City has a lot of seasonal homeless, people who come for the summer and leave for the winter. Seasonal homeless are not counted as chronic homeless. There are no homeless people anywhere else in the state so the ones you see in Salt Lake are it. Not all panhandlers are homeless. Most of the homeless in Salt Lake City seem to disappear at night. There are no massive homeless camps like you see in San Francisco, Portland and Seattle. A lot of the panhandlers in Salt Lake have houses and consider panhandling to be their day job. https://www.ksl.com/?sid=27782692 https://www.ksl.com/?sid=27782692
- tuxxy 10y ago
  >There are no massive homeless camps like you see in San Francisco, Portland and Seattle. Uhh, you sure about that? I literally ride my bike by two almost weekly downtown. They are right off the exit ramp for I-15.
- dasil003 10y ago
  Reminded me of this: http://www.getwestlondon.co.uk/news/local-news/beggar-pretended-homeless-living-300k-5966430 http://www.getwestlondon.co.uk/news/local-news/beggar-preten...
- jonknee 10y ago
  Having Winter weather that will kill people sure makes not counting seasonal homeless a great way to say you don't have any homeless problems.
  - nsnick 10y ago
    Its actually even better than that. Because the tourist season in Salt Lake City is winter, there are no homeless when the tourists are there.
  - trhway 10y ago
    Also shipping your homeless and/or mentally ill to CA.
    - 10y ago
felixmc 10y ago
Your comment is a little misleading...Rio Grande and Pioneer park are literally right next to each other. And other than those couple streets in that corner of downtown, you'd be hardpressed to find any other gathering of homeless people. The Road Home (mentioned in the article) and a Catholic food bank and other homeless services are located in that area, hence the reason for the homeless density in that area. source: I live in downtown salt lake
Mz 10y ago
The article states quite clearly: Utah still has ... a substantial ... homeless population ... around 14,000. The chronically homeless ... are people who have been living on the streets for more than a year, or four times in the past three years, and who have a "disabling condition" that might include serious mental illness, an addiction or a physical disability or illness.

Karunamon 10y ago

One thing that sticks in my mind after a business trip to SLC (SaltConf last year) were the ubiquitous red signs urging people to turn away panhandlers. If people actually take notice, I'd be willing to bet this results in the problem being hidden a lot more than it is in some other cities. The admittedly surface impression I got was that the city is hostile to the homeless.

douche 10y ago
I was very disappointed that ordinances to restrict panhandling in medians were overturned in Portland, ME in recent years. There's no need of that. If you are willing to work, there is always work to be done for a decent wage, (although possibly less than the absurd level minimum wage has climbed to).
- bitJericho 10y ago
  The minimum wage nowadays is just outrageous. http://money.cnn.com/interactive/economy/minimum-wage-since-1938/ http://money.cnn.com/interactive/economy/minimum-wage-since-...
- st3v3r 10y ago
  Anyone who claims the minimum wage level is absurd has clearly never tried to live on it.
  - douche 10y ago
    Last i checked they had increased the minimum wage beyond what trained heavy equipment operators were making. That is absurd, no matter how you slice it.
    - st3v3r 10y ago
      No, it's not. For one, other people having things worse off does not mean that certain people should not be trying to better themselves. For two, if that were true, then the heavy equipment operators should be asking for raises, as they now have the leverage to go to a less demanding job for more pay.
      - lostlogin 10y ago
        How can someone earn less than the minimum while in work? Is the minimum not required to be paid? If that is the case, what is the minimum for?
    - InitialLastName 10y ago
      Do you mean absurd that trained heavy equipment operators are making so little?
  - ensignavenger 10y ago
    I have in the past lived for years off of far less than the Federal minimum wage. It helped that I was healthy and didn't have any medical expenses- but the ridiculous cost of health care is a different debate...
  - cryptarch 10y ago
    Are any of housing, hygeine products, food, clothing , transportation or internet expensive, or is it just healthcare costs that are out of control?
    - vacri 10y ago
      Food in the US is incredibly cheap. Not high quality at the cheap end, but incredibly cheap. Same with clothing.
suresk 10y ago
Doubtful. I used to work in downtown SLC and would get hit up for cash 5 or 6 times per day. Far more than when I've visited other cities like San Francisco or New York. Even in the suburbs, you've got people sitting at the Target parking lot exit begging for money. I don't think anyone pays attention to the signs.

ktRolster 10y ago

Not every homeless person is chronically homeless. A lot of homeless people have skills (so don't look down on them), but they're going through a rough time. After a while, they pick themselves up, go into rehab or whatever, and become non-homeless again.

ekianjo 10y ago
> Not every homeless person is chronically homeless. That's completely biased though. You can only know who is chronically homeless AFTER the fact. So this whole celebration of reducing chronic homelessness is more likely just a PR piece.
- pmiller2 10y ago
  I don't know what you're saying here. The definition of "chronically homeless" is perfectly clear; it's just that you can't look at someone and say "yep, that person fits the definition."
- Notre1 10y ago
  After what "fact"? That seems like a fairly straight-forward statistic based on a snapshot in time (e.g. when you do the survey): Has the person in question been: (a) living on the streets for more than a year, or four times in the past three years, and (b) has a "disabling condition" (e.g. serious mental illness, an addiction or a physical disability or illness)
- Graphon1 10y ago
  > this whole celebration of reducing chronic homelessness is more likely just a PR piece. No... that's not a fair comment. We are measuring it. People are constantly going through rough patches and become homeless. In some cases, most cases, they get help "soon" and get into a home. In other cases, they don't. This article is about the latter cases. Your statement suggests that the efforts to reduce chronic homelessness compete with efforts to help the temporarily homeless. The article doesn't suggest that is the case.

theophrastus 10y ago

Having relatives in city government I have overheard that Utah's proud achievement was accomplished by "adjustments made to their demographic surveys". And that this was seen as a very economical solution to the problem.

stevecalifornia 10y ago
I feel like cynical hear-say like this adds nothing to the conversation. It just tries to smugly diminish good news with no proof.
- eropple 10y ago
  It's also very likely true. http://www.aei.org/publication/on-utahs-91-percent-decrease-in-chronic-homelessness/ http://www.aei.org/publication/on-utahs-91-percent-decrease-...
  - stevecalifornia 10y ago
    Ok, great. Then post facts instead of "My family overheard..." I shouldn't have to call out hear-say to get more substantial data.
  - moosey 10y ago
    There is nothing in that analysis that suggests that the reductions aren't real. Quoting in "The Data" portion: > Figure 2 shows that, measured by its point-in-time counts, Utah experienced a less dramatic, but still impressive 71 percent decrease in chronic homelessness since 2005. Yet should we trust even the point-in-time counts? Yes. If you want to challenge them, go out and do point in time counts rather than suggest that someone is lying. In fact, challenging them in the manner that the writer is is fundamentally dishonest, suggesting again that research by its very nature shouldn't be trusted. > In fact, as Figure 3 shows, there were major drop-offs in chronic homelessness during two separate periods: 2009–10 and 2014–15. If not for these two periods, chronic homelessness in Utah would have increased over the past decade. Just because reductions appear during specific time periods during a research period does nothing to deny the fact that overall reductions occurred. This is like suggesting that a small uptick in violent crime means that crime hasn't reduced at all over the last several decades. The entire article is anti-science, as the AEI all too often is. If you want to challenge research, you don't do it by suggesting someone is lying, you do it by using the scientific method. AEI really doesn't do any of that, it is primarily there to challenge research to protect support for conservative ideals while making them seem as if they are well researched.

binxbolling 10y ago

FTFA: "In fact, Utah still has a substantial homeless problem. The overall homeless population is around 14,000. The chronically homeless, on the other hand, are a subset of the homeless population that is often the most vulnerable. These are people who have been living on the streets for more than a year, or four times in the past three years, and who have a "disabling condition" that might include serious mental illness, an addiction or a physical disability or illness."

broahmed 10y ago

_Chronic_ homelessness is what's been reduced. From the article: "As of 2015, the state can just about declare victory: The population of chronically homeless people has dropped by 91 percent." ... "In fact, Utah still has a substantial homeless problem. The overall homeless population is around 14,000." "The chronically homeless, on the other hand, are a subset of the homeless population that is often the most vulnerable. These are people who have been living on the streets for more than a year, or four times in the past three years, and who have a "disabling condition" that might include serious mental illness, an addiction or a physical disability or illness." ... "By implementing a model known as Housing First, Utah has reduced that number from nearly 2,000 people in 2005, to fewer than 200 now."

TheGRS 10y ago
Yes thank you, the article does contain a lot more info than just the headline. Homelessness is a more complex issue than it appears at the surface. There a many stages of homelessness and different demographics of it. A shelter I contribute to here in Portland focuses specifically on homeless families who have recently fell on hard times and tries to address getting them back on their feet and into sustainable jobs before they enter a vicious circle and are unable to get back into the system at all. I don't believe those families would have counted toward the chronic homeless number.
- austenallred 10y ago
  Of course, but how is chronic defined and measured, and how has that changed historically? I've heard that the definition is ever-changing. I read the article
  - bluehawk 10y ago
    Did you really? The fifth paragraph defines it: "The chronically homeless, on the other hand, are a subset of the homeless population that is often the most vulnerable. These are people who have been living on the streets for more than a year, or four times in the past three years, and who have a "disabling condition" that might include serious mental illness, an addiction or a physical disability or illness."

nsnick 10y ago

Salt Lake City has a lot of seasonal homeless, people who come for the summer and leave for the winter. Seasonal homeless are not counted as chronic homeless. There are no homeless people anywhere else in the state so the ones you see in Salt Lake are it. Not all panhandlers are homeless. Most of the homeless in Salt Lake City seem to disappear at night. There are no massive homeless camps like you see in San Francisco, Portland and Seattle. A lot of the panhandlers in Salt Lake have houses and consider panhandling to be their day job. https://www.ksl.com/?sid=27782692 https://www.ksl.com/?sid=27782692

tuxxy 10y ago
>There are no massive homeless camps like you see in San Francisco, Portland and Seattle. Uhh, you sure about that? I literally ride my bike by two almost weekly downtown. They are right off the exit ramp for I-15.
dasil003 10y ago
Reminded me of this: http://www.getwestlondon.co.uk/news/local-news/beggar-pretended-homeless-living-300k-5966430 http://www.getwestlondon.co.uk/news/local-news/beggar-preten...
jonknee 10y ago
Having Winter weather that will kill people sure makes not counting seasonal homeless a great way to say you don't have any homeless problems.
- nsnick 10y ago
  Its actually even better than that. Because the tourist season in Salt Lake City is winter, there are no homeless when the tourists are there.
- trhway 10y ago
  Also shipping your homeless and/or mentally ill to CA.
  - 10y ago

felixmc 10y ago

Your comment is a little misleading...Rio Grande and Pioneer park are literally right next to each other. And other than those couple streets in that corner of downtown, you'd be hardpressed to find any other gathering of homeless people. The Road Home (mentioned in the article) and a Catholic food bank and other homeless services are located in that area, hence the reason for the homeless density in that area. source: I live in downtown salt lake

Mz 10y ago

The article states quite clearly: Utah still has ... a substantial ... homeless population ... around 14,000. The chronically homeless ... are people who have been living on the streets for more than a year, or four times in the past three years, and who have a "disabling condition" that might include serious mental illness, an addiction or a physical disability or illness.