5 ms·

"I'd like to thank my parents, Ayn Rand and God."

bandrami 10y ago
Now, if you make it singular, it's the presence of an Oxford comma that makes it ambiguous: "I'd like to thank my mother, Ayn Rand, and God" Whereas "I'd like to thank my mother, Ayn Rand and God" As long as English uses commas for both apposition and list separation, there will always be ambiguity no matter which comma convention is used.
- OJFord 10y ago
  Seems like a bit of a tortured example to me, is the order really important? "I'd like to thank God, and my mother, Ayn Rand, ..." > As long as English uses commas for both apposition and list separation Then don't, if it's a concern. "I'd like to thank my mother (Ayn Rand) and God ..." A lack of an Oxford comma is always an ambiguity. The reverse 'problem' - which I've never encountered 'in the wild' - can be dealt with in so many ways.
  - jakelazaroff 10y ago
    > A lack of an Oxford comma is always an ambiguity. Not true. The example given ("I'd like to thank my mother, Ayn Rand and God") lacks a serial comma yet is unambiguously a list of three items.
- noja 10y ago
  Why do you have that first comma. "I'd like to thank my mother Ayn Rand, and God" is clearer.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
  - in_cahoots 10y ago
    Yes, but how do you handle the case where your mother is not Ayn Rand and you want to thank three individuals?
    - mrob 10y ago
      "I'd like to thank my mother, to thank Ayn Rand, and to thank God."
      - desdiv 10y ago
        Following the conventions of programming languages with mandatory bounds checking (and thus have to keep track of the array size at all times): "I'd like to thank three people: my mother, Ayn Rand, and God."
  - pfooti 10y ago
    The first comma is more-or-less required. It either means, "my mother, who is ayn rand", or it is a serial comma to indicate three people, the speaker's mother, ayn rand and god. There is no construction where there's no comma between 'mother' and 'ayn' AFAIK, it's just either appositive or serial. One could reconstruct the sentence: I would like to thank my mother (who is ayn rand), and god. I would like to thank god and my mother, ayn rand. The problem isn't that other, less-ambiguous constructions exist, it is that the construction as written is ambiguous but grammatically correct. It's an operator overloading issue.
  - swammeyjoe 10y ago
    That's not correct, as both "mother" and "Ayn Rand" are items in a list and need to be separated by a comma.
- howeyc 10y ago
  I don't understand how the first sentence is at all ambiguous. It actually makes more sense to me than the second.
  - jakelazaroff 10y ago
    Since commas are used for apposition, it's unclear whether the author's mother is Ayn Rand.
    - howeyc 10y ago
      I guess I'm out of the loop then, because I see no other meaning for the first comma when the second one is there. To me it's the second sentence where the commas meaning is ambiguous. Almost like the writer is confused and two entities are its singular "mother."
- Y_Y 10y ago
  Unless you're implying that Ayn Rand is God (I wouldn't be surprised on HN) I read the upper example as using parenthetical commas, with the result that they parse to the same ambiguity.
- CarVac 10y ago
  I use the serial comma. I'd say "I'd like to thank my mother Ayn Rand, and God" in that case. I place commas where I'd pause in speech. In that situation, I wouldn't pause between "mother" and "Ayn", so no comma goes there. In order to group "mother" and "Ayn Rand" together, a comma follows.

Now, if you make it singular, it's the presence of an Oxford comma that makes it ambiguous: "I'd like to thank my mother, Ayn Rand, and God" Whereas "I'd like to thank my mother, Ayn Rand and God" As long as English uses commas for both apposition and list separation, there will always be ambiguity no matter which comma convention is used.

OJFord 10y ago
Seems like a bit of a tortured example to me, is the order really important? "I'd like to thank God, and my mother, Ayn Rand, ..." > As long as English uses commas for both apposition and list separation Then don't, if it's a concern. "I'd like to thank my mother (Ayn Rand) and God ..." A lack of an Oxford comma is always an ambiguity. The reverse 'problem' - which I've never encountered 'in the wild' - can be dealt with in so many ways.
- jakelazaroff 10y ago
  > A lack of an Oxford comma is always an ambiguity. Not true. The example given ("I'd like to thank my mother, Ayn Rand and God") lacks a serial comma yet is unambiguously a list of three items.
noja 10y ago
Why do you have that first comma. "I'd like to thank my mother Ayn Rand, and God" is clearer.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- in_cahoots 10y ago
  Yes, but how do you handle the case where your mother is not Ayn Rand and you want to thank three individuals?
  - mrob 10y ago
    "I'd like to thank my mother, to thank Ayn Rand, and to thank God."
    - desdiv 10y ago
      Following the conventions of programming languages with mandatory bounds checking (and thus have to keep track of the array size at all times): "I'd like to thank three people: my mother, Ayn Rand, and God."
- pfooti 10y ago
  The first comma is more-or-less required. It either means, "my mother, who is ayn rand", or it is a serial comma to indicate three people, the speaker's mother, ayn rand and god. There is no construction where there's no comma between 'mother' and 'ayn' AFAIK, it's just either appositive or serial. One could reconstruct the sentence: I would like to thank my mother (who is ayn rand), and god. I would like to thank god and my mother, ayn rand. The problem isn't that other, less-ambiguous constructions exist, it is that the construction as written is ambiguous but grammatically correct. It's an operator overloading issue.
- swammeyjoe 10y ago
  That's not correct, as both "mother" and "Ayn Rand" are items in a list and need to be separated by a comma.
howeyc 10y ago
I don't understand how the first sentence is at all ambiguous. It actually makes more sense to me than the second.
- jakelazaroff 10y ago
  Since commas are used for apposition, it's unclear whether the author's mother is Ayn Rand.
  - howeyc 10y ago
    I guess I'm out of the loop then, because I see no other meaning for the first comma when the second one is there. To me it's the second sentence where the commas meaning is ambiguous. Almost like the writer is confused and two entities are its singular "mother."
Y_Y 10y ago
Unless you're implying that Ayn Rand is God (I wouldn't be surprised on HN) I read the upper example as using parenthetical commas, with the result that they parse to the same ambiguity.
CarVac 10y ago
I use the serial comma. I'd say "I'd like to thank my mother Ayn Rand, and God" in that case. I place commas where I'd pause in speech. In that situation, I wouldn't pause between "mother" and "Ayn", so no comma goes there. In order to group "mother" and "Ayn Rand" together, a comma follows.