5 ms·

Wow this blog post makes djb sound like such a scumbag. The idea that he would ask people to consider the allegations "false" is absurd (there's a difference b

Wow this blog post makes djb sound like such a scumbag. The idea that he would ask people to consider the allegations "false" is absurd (there's a difference between presuming innocence vs presuming the the allegations are false). I would love to hear his side of the story.

belovedeagle 10y ago
Since when are targets of blatant and long-standing smear campaigns given the chance to tell "their side of the story", and what good would it do if they were, since there is no story of which they could tell their side? You've fallen right into the trap of thinking there is a story which needs to be told, rather than questioning from the beginning, "where is the evidence for any of this?" What's incredibly sad is it took his detractors this long to find someone willing to fabricate such a transparent story.
- pseudalopex 10y ago
  The author of the article published what he claims were emails sent by Bernstein. If the entire story is fabricated, Bernstein's side is "I never sent those emails".
  - belovedeagle 10y ago
    On the contrary, the emails seem very credible and do not in any way shake my confidence that the entire story is fabricated. The accuser refuses, when asked, to put any accusations into a formal statement, instead relying on making blog posts such as the this. To me that sounds very much like (a) someone deliberately making false accusations and/or (b) someone in need of help for mental illness. I can think of no other reason not to put one's concerns in writing at the first opportunity; can you shed any light on that decision?
    - pseudalopex 10y ago
      Bernstein told the author not to mention their prior conversation in his complaint. The author found this suspicious and filed a complaint with the department secretary instead. You know one thing about the author's mental health: he had panic attacks during a very stressful time in his life. Any psychologist can tell you that this has no bearing on someone's truthfulness. Continuing to speculate about his mental health is in very poor taste.
      - DashRattlesnake 10y ago
        > Bernstein told the author not to mention their prior conversation in his complaint. No, he wanted to the author to restate his complete complaint, rather than merely reference previous confidential statements.
        pseudalopex 10y ago
        That may well have been all Bernstein wanted, but he told the author to leave out "any reference to the previous conversation".
    - thebooktocome 10y ago
      Did you read the post? The accuser did make several "formal statements", most of which went ignored. > On my return, with an alternate way to stay in the EU secured, I prepared a written complaint and sent it to our department secretary on the 22nd of August... ... > At the beginning of September, I spoke to two people in HR for nearly two hours, answering their follow-up questions about the complaint I had sent them. ... > While in North America, an HR rep contacted me to tell me that I needed to personally meet with yet another person at the university, who is in charge of scientific integrity. I sent this person a copy of the same written complaint I had already sent to HR, and arranged a meeting. So that's four or five people who received a formal, written statement from the accuser, and did nothing in response.
brl 10y ago
> I would love to hear his side of the story. Some of his side of the story has been told in the leaked emails: https://www.hdevalence.ca/etc/34de2f3c2a48f7da/EmAiLs.txt https://www.hdevalence.ca/etc/34de2f3c2a48f7da/EmAiLs.txt
- hawkice 10y ago
  tl;dr DJB was approached with a complaint, and thought it was a situation where he would give advice and his counterparty expected he would maintain his confidence. After he heard about the frustration the complainant was experiencing, asked the person to file a formal complaint, or at least send a self-contained email (explicitly acknowledged as not confidential) that he could use to move forward, in order to not break that confidence. Seems that's where things broke down. There's another complaint related to Tanja that seems separate (he says that she urged him to not file a complaint immediately), but that's orthogonal to DJB's side of this, I think. EDIT: It seems, from context, that the complainant wanted the confidence revoked, and everything put on the record (not unreasonable). But DJB doesn't _keep_ records of confidential things -- hence his insistence that they start from the beginning. EDIT2: I'm trying to summarize "What is DJB's side of this (as communicated in the linked emails)?" not the whole scenario. I don't know anything about this situation directly.
  - viraptor 10y ago
    > But DJB doesn't _keep_ records of confidential things -- hence his insistence that they start from the beginning. I call BS on this, if we're talking about adults at university positions. The reasonable response in that case is: "I do not have any archives. Please resend everything you've got.", not starting from the beginning without communicating that fact clearly. If someone fails to act properly in that position, they shouldn't be overseeing other people. He should not stop because of a technicality on his side in that situation. (Edit: reasonable response == absolute minimum here, he could do much more)
    - hawkice 10y ago
      I don't disagree -- presumably some of their conversation happened verbally, so the claim 'I don't take notes or have records of confidential things' makes more sense? Seems likely, I frequently discuss things in person first. I also agree with your characterization of the other side of this -- that it seems like he's using a technicality to excuse not doing something important. I'm not advocating anything, just trying to summarize a pretty long email chain.
cameldrv 10y ago
The emails don't show djb as a scumbag, just a little bit cold and rule-oriented. The kind of guy that is generally regarded as writing the most secure unclassified crypto code is going to be rule-oriented. Think of Immanuel Kant, who (roughly) said that the golden rule was the ultimate law, and required him to always tell the truth, even if a murderer showed up at his door, and asked whether his target was upstairs. DJB is simply saying he's willing to be the guy's confidant, but if he wants him to act in a formal, legal way, he wants him to tell him all the things he's willing to have exposed to a legal process. He doesn't want to assume that just because he's filing a complaint, that everything that his friend has told him in confidence is now potentially public record, and so he wants him to repeat what he wants to be on the record. To me, that's the mark of a good friend.
- pseudalopex 10y ago
  Both of them describe Bernstein as a manager, not a friend. I think Bernstein may simply have meant that the written complaint had to be specific, but that took a close reading and some charity. His direction to leave out "any reference to the previous conversation" first struck me as wanting to pretend there hadn't been one.
  - tempestn 10y ago
    That's not the impression I got. It sounded to me like there had been a long, confidential conversation, perhaps spanning different media, and he just wanted an authoritative email laying out the full issue, which he could then act on, without needing to try to accurately recall all past conversation and determine which parts should be confidential or not. I'm not saying it was the ideal response, just that if we give the benefit of the doubt it doesn't appear to be a malicious one.
    - pseudalopex 10y ago
      Like I said, a close reading made me rethink my first impression. Still, I can't blame the author for interpreting "any reference" as "any reference".
belorn 10y ago
Are we talking about the allegations of rape, or the allegations of slander? djb consider both allegations to be possible true and false.

belovedeagle 10y ago

Since when are targets of blatant and long-standing smear campaigns given the chance to tell "their side of the story", and what good would it do if they were, since there is no story of which they could tell their side? You've fallen right into the trap of thinking there is a story which needs to be told, rather than questioning from the beginning, "where is the evidence for any of this?" What's incredibly sad is it took his detractors this long to find someone willing to fabricate such a transparent story.

pseudalopex 10y ago
The author of the article published what he claims were emails sent by Bernstein. If the entire story is fabricated, Bernstein's side is "I never sent those emails".
- belovedeagle 10y ago
  On the contrary, the emails seem very credible and do not in any way shake my confidence that the entire story is fabricated. The accuser refuses, when asked, to put any accusations into a formal statement, instead relying on making blog posts such as the this. To me that sounds very much like (a) someone deliberately making false accusations and/or (b) someone in need of help for mental illness. I can think of no other reason not to put one's concerns in writing at the first opportunity; can you shed any light on that decision?
  - pseudalopex 10y ago
    Bernstein told the author not to mention their prior conversation in his complaint. The author found this suspicious and filed a complaint with the department secretary instead. You know one thing about the author's mental health: he had panic attacks during a very stressful time in his life. Any psychologist can tell you that this has no bearing on someone's truthfulness. Continuing to speculate about his mental health is in very poor taste.
    - DashRattlesnake 10y ago
      > Bernstein told the author not to mention their prior conversation in his complaint. No, he wanted to the author to restate his complete complaint, rather than merely reference previous confidential statements.
      - pseudalopex 10y ago
        That may well have been all Bernstein wanted, but he told the author to leave out "any reference to the previous conversation".
  - thebooktocome 10y ago
    Did you read the post? The accuser did make several "formal statements", most of which went ignored. > On my return, with an alternate way to stay in the EU secured, I prepared a written complaint and sent it to our department secretary on the 22nd of August... ... > At the beginning of September, I spoke to two people in HR for nearly two hours, answering their follow-up questions about the complaint I had sent them. ... > While in North America, an HR rep contacted me to tell me that I needed to personally meet with yet another person at the university, who is in charge of scientific integrity. I sent this person a copy of the same written complaint I had already sent to HR, and arranged a meeting. So that's four or five people who received a formal, written statement from the accuser, and did nothing in response.

brl 10y ago

> I would love to hear his side of the story. Some of his side of the story has been told in the leaked emails: https://www.hdevalence.ca/etc/34de2f3c2a48f7da/EmAiLs.txt https://www.hdevalence.ca/etc/34de2f3c2a48f7da/EmAiLs.txt

hawkice 10y ago
tl;dr DJB was approached with a complaint, and thought it was a situation where he would give advice and his counterparty expected he would maintain his confidence. After he heard about the frustration the complainant was experiencing, asked the person to file a formal complaint, or at least send a self-contained email (explicitly acknowledged as not confidential) that he could use to move forward, in order to not break that confidence. Seems that's where things broke down. There's another complaint related to Tanja that seems separate (he says that she urged him to not file a complaint immediately), but that's orthogonal to DJB's side of this, I think. EDIT: It seems, from context, that the complainant wanted the confidence revoked, and everything put on the record (not unreasonable). But DJB doesn't _keep_ records of confidential things -- hence his insistence that they start from the beginning. EDIT2: I'm trying to summarize "What is DJB's side of this (as communicated in the linked emails)?" not the whole scenario. I don't know anything about this situation directly.
- viraptor 10y ago
  > But DJB doesn't _keep_ records of confidential things -- hence his insistence that they start from the beginning. I call BS on this, if we're talking about adults at university positions. The reasonable response in that case is: "I do not have any archives. Please resend everything you've got.", not starting from the beginning without communicating that fact clearly. If someone fails to act properly in that position, they shouldn't be overseeing other people. He should not stop because of a technicality on his side in that situation. (Edit: reasonable response == absolute minimum here, he could do much more)
  - hawkice 10y ago
    I don't disagree -- presumably some of their conversation happened verbally, so the claim 'I don't take notes or have records of confidential things' makes more sense? Seems likely, I frequently discuss things in person first. I also agree with your characterization of the other side of this -- that it seems like he's using a technicality to excuse not doing something important. I'm not advocating anything, just trying to summarize a pretty long email chain.

cameldrv 10y ago

The emails don't show djb as a scumbag, just a little bit cold and rule-oriented. The kind of guy that is generally regarded as writing the most secure unclassified crypto code is going to be rule-oriented. Think of Immanuel Kant, who (roughly) said that the golden rule was the ultimate law, and required him to always tell the truth, even if a murderer showed up at his door, and asked whether his target was upstairs. DJB is simply saying he's willing to be the guy's confidant, but if he wants him to act in a formal, legal way, he wants him to tell him all the things he's willing to have exposed to a legal process. He doesn't want to assume that just because he's filing a complaint, that everything that his friend has told him in confidence is now potentially public record, and so he wants him to repeat what he wants to be on the record. To me, that's the mark of a good friend.

pseudalopex 10y ago
Both of them describe Bernstein as a manager, not a friend. I think Bernstein may simply have meant that the written complaint had to be specific, but that took a close reading and some charity. His direction to leave out "any reference to the previous conversation" first struck me as wanting to pretend there hadn't been one.
- tempestn 10y ago
  That's not the impression I got. It sounded to me like there had been a long, confidential conversation, perhaps spanning different media, and he just wanted an authoritative email laying out the full issue, which he could then act on, without needing to try to accurately recall all past conversation and determine which parts should be confidential or not. I'm not saying it was the ideal response, just that if we give the benefit of the doubt it doesn't appear to be a malicious one.
  - pseudalopex 10y ago
    Like I said, a close reading made me rethink my first impression. Still, I can't blame the author for interpreting "any reference" as "any reference".

belorn 10y ago

Are we talking about the allegations of rape, or the allegations of slander? djb consider both allegations to be possible true and false.