6 ms·

While I agree with the general sentiment, to be honest there are easier solutions here. They could've just turned on the sign as soon as they saw the A380 so th

While I agree with the general sentiment, to be honest there are easier solutions here. They could've just turned on the sign as soon as they saw the A380 so that people could fasten their seatbelts then. And then turned off the sign when the threat was gone. You don't need a cannon to kill a fly.

M_Grey 10y ago
In the 1-2 minutes between this thing booming past them, and being sent into a spin... you want them telling people to buckle up? That doesn't seem like the easier solution; it mostly sounds like a way to have people still hurrying in the aisles when it's too late.
- wfunction 10y ago
  Even half a minute minute is a hell of a lot of time and overwhelmingly better than no notice. Currently airplanes sometimes only turn on the sign after the turbulence has already started. Also, it's not like they never have no idea which airplanes are around them until they visually see the airplane. They could turn on the sign earlier if they know earlier.
  - M_Grey 10y ago
    I mean you say that, but wasn't this an accident predicated on not being aware of the positions of other planes? You're basically saying that we should plan for accidents, because wearing a seatbelt is somehow... what? Cumbersome? If your neurological integrity isn't worth some hours in a seat, I guess that's your choice to make though.
    - wfunction 10y ago
      > I mean you say that, but wasn't this an accident predicated on not being aware of the positions of other planes? Uh, no? "an Airbus A380-800 was observed by the crew passing 1000 feet above" http://avherald.com/h?article=4a5e80f3 http://avherald.com/h?article=4a5e80f3 > You're basically saying that we should plan for accidents Yes, whenever possible. It should make sense, really. > because ...because it's sometimes possible and predictable, in which case it logically makes sense to plan for it. > wearing a seatbelt is somehow... what? Cumbersome? Not because of that. But yes, it is cumbersome. Makes it harder to relax, sleep, get up, etc... is this really that shocking to you?
      - M_Grey 10y ago
        "According to information The Aviation Herald received on March 4th 2017 the CL-604 passed 1000 feet below an Airbus A380-800 while enroute over the Arabian Sea, when a short time later (1-2 minutes)" They saw the plane, and 1-2 minutes later... bang. We already went over this.
        wfunction 10y ago
        > They saw the plane, and 1-2 minutes later... bang. We already went over this. We did, that's why it made zero sense that you said this was predicated on not being aware of the positions of other planes. They were aware of this a full 1-2 minutes earlier at least. They could've turned on the sign. The solution was totally implementable.
        M_Grey 10y ago
        I think we've reached that point at which I'd be happy to buckle my seatbelt and let you walk around the cabin to your heart's content. I am not your parent.
        Moru 10y ago
        Except if he lands on you, that isn't very funny
        ptaipale 10y ago
        When I sit in the same cabin, and I'm buckled up, the previous poster (or his body parts) will be bouncing all over the seats of the same cabin, which is a danger to me. So I still prefer that he also buckles up.
        M_Grey 10y ago
        As do I, but he's a poster on HN and not on a flight with me, and I have considerations for the value of my time and the integrity of my sanity when dealing with people who think that "intentionally obtuse" is a position in argument.
  - lathiat 10y ago
    In my experience (particularly on Emirates) they generally turn the seatbelt sign on before the turbulence because they can generally predict it on radar. It is a little annoying when you have 20-30 minute seatbelt periods with barely any actual turbulence but there you go.
    - M_Grey 10y ago
      This is true for any airline, but there is something (like the story in this case) called "CAT" or Clear Air Turbulence.
ekianjo 10y ago
> They could've just turned on the sign as soon as they saw the A380 so that people could fasten their seatbelts then In a car you usually fasten your seatbelt all the time so that you don't have to guess when the risk is going to occur. In a plane there's no reason not to act the same way.
- wfunction 10y ago
  > In a car you usually fasten your seatbelt all the time so that you don't have to guess when the risk is going to occur. In a plane there's no reason not to act the same way. Sure there is. The chances of dying in a car accident are around 1% whereas the same in an air accident is, like, 100x less likely? It's like how you wear a helmet when you're in a construction zone but you don't wear a helmet when walking around the city despite the nonzero chance that something might fall on your head. (Or do you?)
  - Moru 10y ago
    We are not only talking about dying in accidents, hitting your head on the ceiling can still hurt a lot. The risk does not only come from meeting planes, it can also be natural turbulence that you get no warning for. The reasons there are less accidents in the planes is not because they are inherently more safe (ever read up how helicopters work?), it comes from the rigorous rules around everything flying. The rules exists mostly because something happened and the industry set rules to make it not happen again. You wear helmets on construction sites because the risk of something falling on your head is so much higher when people are working with loose tools in high altitudes, hanging from ropes or whatever. (And the company is responsible for your safety so will protect their asses from getting sued.)
sulam 10y ago
Surely this entire event is notable because no one had any idea that this might happen. Seat belts or not, 3 or more rolls and a written off airplane is an outcome they would have avoided if they'd known it had even a remote chance of happening.
- wfunction 10y ago
  You'd think so, but from now on do you think planes are going to stop flying under each other or try to maneuver out of the way when this happens inadvertently? I really wish they do, but that's not the impression I got from the article. All I saw was "ATC all around the globe have recently been instructed to exercise particular care with A380s crossing above other aircraft. The Aviation Herald had already reported a number of Wake Turbulence Encounters involving A380s before", which is kind of vague and doesn't quite give me the impression they're necessarily (literally) going to go out of their ways for this if it has a chance of happening.
  - andruby 10y ago
    Yes. I think that all small aircraft pilots will read/hear about this story. They might even practice the event in simulators. And all of them will avoid passing under a large aircraft at 180 degrees. Source: my father is an airline pilot and they always take the time to learn from severe incidents.
    - paulajohnson 10y ago
      If you are flying in controlled airspace then you fly where ATC tell you, not where you happen to think would be a good idea. If you want to change course for any reason you ask ATC. The only exception would be to avoid an imminent collision.
      - andruby 10y ago
        Good point. Is there any leeway to adjust your heading slightly and then correct back?
lutorm 10y ago
Does not work for Clear Air Turbulence, which can be severe enough to make people fly out of their seats, too. I've been in planes where the CAT was severe enough to have lifted me out of my seat if I hadn't been buckled in, and it happened with no warning.

M_Grey 10y ago

In the 1-2 minutes between this thing booming past them, and being sent into a spin... you want them telling people to buckle up? That doesn't seem like the easier solution; it mostly sounds like a way to have people still hurrying in the aisles when it's too late.

wfunction 10y ago
Even half a minute minute is a hell of a lot of time and overwhelmingly better than no notice. Currently airplanes sometimes only turn on the sign after the turbulence has already started. Also, it's not like they never have no idea which airplanes are around them until they visually see the airplane. They could turn on the sign earlier if they know earlier.
- M_Grey 10y ago
  I mean you say that, but wasn't this an accident predicated on not being aware of the positions of other planes? You're basically saying that we should plan for accidents, because wearing a seatbelt is somehow... what? Cumbersome? If your neurological integrity isn't worth some hours in a seat, I guess that's your choice to make though.
  - wfunction 10y ago
    > I mean you say that, but wasn't this an accident predicated on not being aware of the positions of other planes? Uh, no? "an Airbus A380-800 was observed by the crew passing 1000 feet above" http://avherald.com/h?article=4a5e80f3 http://avherald.com/h?article=4a5e80f3 > You're basically saying that we should plan for accidents Yes, whenever possible. It should make sense, really. > because ...because it's sometimes possible and predictable, in which case it logically makes sense to plan for it. > wearing a seatbelt is somehow... what? Cumbersome? Not because of that. But yes, it is cumbersome. Makes it harder to relax, sleep, get up, etc... is this really that shocking to you?
    - M_Grey 10y ago
      "According to information The Aviation Herald received on March 4th 2017 the CL-604 passed 1000 feet below an Airbus A380-800 while enroute over the Arabian Sea, when a short time later (1-2 minutes)" They saw the plane, and 1-2 minutes later... bang. We already went over this.
      - wfunction 10y ago
        > They saw the plane, and 1-2 minutes later... bang. We already went over this. We did, that's why it made zero sense that you said this was predicated on not being aware of the positions of other planes. They were aware of this a full 1-2 minutes earlier at least. They could've turned on the sign. The solution was totally implementable.
        M_Grey 10y ago
        I think we've reached that point at which I'd be happy to buckle my seatbelt and let you walk around the cabin to your heart's content. I am not your parent.
        Moru 10y ago
        Except if he lands on you, that isn't very funny
        ptaipale 10y ago
        When I sit in the same cabin, and I'm buckled up, the previous poster (or his body parts) will be bouncing all over the seats of the same cabin, which is a danger to me. So I still prefer that he also buckles up.
        M_Grey 10y ago
        As do I, but he's a poster on HN and not on a flight with me, and I have considerations for the value of my time and the integrity of my sanity when dealing with people who think that "intentionally obtuse" is a position in argument.
- lathiat 10y ago
  In my experience (particularly on Emirates) they generally turn the seatbelt sign on before the turbulence because they can generally predict it on radar. It is a little annoying when you have 20-30 minute seatbelt periods with barely any actual turbulence but there you go.
  - M_Grey 10y ago
    This is true for any airline, but there is something (like the story in this case) called "CAT" or Clear Air Turbulence.

ekianjo 10y ago

> They could've just turned on the sign as soon as they saw the A380 so that people could fasten their seatbelts then In a car you usually fasten your seatbelt all the time so that you don't have to guess when the risk is going to occur. In a plane there's no reason not to act the same way.

wfunction 10y ago
> In a car you usually fasten your seatbelt all the time so that you don't have to guess when the risk is going to occur. In a plane there's no reason not to act the same way. Sure there is. The chances of dying in a car accident are around 1% whereas the same in an air accident is, like, 100x less likely? It's like how you wear a helmet when you're in a construction zone but you don't wear a helmet when walking around the city despite the nonzero chance that something might fall on your head. (Or do you?)
- Moru 10y ago
  We are not only talking about dying in accidents, hitting your head on the ceiling can still hurt a lot. The risk does not only come from meeting planes, it can also be natural turbulence that you get no warning for. The reasons there are less accidents in the planes is not because they are inherently more safe (ever read up how helicopters work?), it comes from the rigorous rules around everything flying. The rules exists mostly because something happened and the industry set rules to make it not happen again. You wear helmets on construction sites because the risk of something falling on your head is so much higher when people are working with loose tools in high altitudes, hanging from ropes or whatever. (And the company is responsible for your safety so will protect their asses from getting sued.)

sulam 10y ago

Surely this entire event is notable because no one had any idea that this might happen. Seat belts or not, 3 or more rolls and a written off airplane is an outcome they would have avoided if they'd known it had even a remote chance of happening.

wfunction 10y ago
You'd think so, but from now on do you think planes are going to stop flying under each other or try to maneuver out of the way when this happens inadvertently? I really wish they do, but that's not the impression I got from the article. All I saw was "ATC all around the globe have recently been instructed to exercise particular care with A380s crossing above other aircraft. The Aviation Herald had already reported a number of Wake Turbulence Encounters involving A380s before", which is kind of vague and doesn't quite give me the impression they're necessarily (literally) going to go out of their ways for this if it has a chance of happening.
- andruby 10y ago
  Yes. I think that all small aircraft pilots will read/hear about this story. They might even practice the event in simulators. And all of them will avoid passing under a large aircraft at 180 degrees. Source: my father is an airline pilot and they always take the time to learn from severe incidents.
  - paulajohnson 10y ago
    If you are flying in controlled airspace then you fly where ATC tell you, not where you happen to think would be a good idea. If you want to change course for any reason you ask ATC. The only exception would be to avoid an imminent collision.
    - andruby 10y ago
      Good point. Is there any leeway to adjust your heading slightly and then correct back?

lutorm 10y ago

Does not work for Clear Air Turbulence, which can be severe enough to make people fly out of their seats, too. I've been in planes where the CAT was severe enough to have lifted me out of my seat if I hadn't been buckled in, and it happened with no warning.