3 ms·

This feels a lot like the "downloading mp3 is stealing". If you don't want people stealing your music, don't put it other people's hands. The minute you releas

This feels a lot like the "downloading mp3 is stealing". If you don't want people stealing your music, don't put it other people's hands. The minute you release it to the world, it can't be reversed. See streisand effect. Likewise, you cannot place burden on your visitors to read and analyze ToS with their lawyers and submit an official request via fax. If you don't want people access your server, put it behind a paywall or a login screen at least so that you can easily ban people who don't play by your rules. Otherwise, you have no excuse. If it's publicly accessible, then you cannot enforce any legally binding agreement as you've left the front door wide open and expect people to read tiny letters you put in front of your mailbox. ToS is a one way street.

hsod 10y ago
Seems like your argument is based on the idea that it's unreasonable to expect the end user to understand the terms under which a service is offered. And that's fair in some cases, but it's also kind of a cop out. "How was I supposed to know they didn't want me to scrape it? I'm just an innocent passerby dropping bits on a wire" is bullshit in many, many cases. You do know, or at least could easily find out if you wanted to, but choose to maintain a fiction of ignorance to avoid responsibility. Sure, if someone makes it difficult or arcane to read and understand their TOS, you're probably not (morally) bound by it. But if you close your eyes and plug your ears, you don't have much of a leg to stand on.
- brilliantcode 10y ago
  If someone breaks the TOS, you can block them or send them C&D letters. If you have the cash to take someone to court but you are going to be on the losing side. ToS is not a mutually binding agreement. Even if you have a checkbox that says "I have read the terms", it's often thrown out because nobody expects you to read EULA down to the letter.
- codedokode 10y ago
  Scraping a website can be compared to only downloading mp3 file, not redistributing it to other people. And I don't see how electronic ToS have any legal power. It is not a contract one has signed before visiting a site. I think ToS should only bind the website owner, not its visitors.
  - brilliantcode 10y ago
    It doesn't. It would be like stepping in to a store because people were welcoming you and realizing that by sitting down you've automatically agreed and consented to tiny ToS written behind every napkin. It's unenforceable and has never stood up in court.

hsod 10y ago

Seems like your argument is based on the idea that it's unreasonable to expect the end user to understand the terms under which a service is offered. And that's fair in some cases, but it's also kind of a cop out. "How was I supposed to know they didn't want me to scrape it? I'm just an innocent passerby dropping bits on a wire" is bullshit in many, many cases. You do know, or at least could easily find out if you wanted to, but choose to maintain a fiction of ignorance to avoid responsibility. Sure, if someone makes it difficult or arcane to read and understand their TOS, you're probably not (morally) bound by it. But if you close your eyes and plug your ears, you don't have much of a leg to stand on.

brilliantcode 10y ago
If someone breaks the TOS, you can block them or send them C&D letters. If you have the cash to take someone to court but you are going to be on the losing side. ToS is not a mutually binding agreement. Even if you have a checkbox that says "I have read the terms", it's often thrown out because nobody expects you to read EULA down to the letter.
codedokode 10y ago
Scraping a website can be compared to only downloading mp3 file, not redistributing it to other people. And I don't see how electronic ToS have any legal power. It is not a contract one has signed before visiting a site. I think ToS should only bind the website owner, not its visitors.
- brilliantcode 10y ago
  It doesn't. It would be like stepping in to a store because people were welcoming you and realizing that by sitting down you've automatically agreed and consented to tiny ToS written behind every napkin. It's unenforceable and has never stood up in court.