5 ms·

Ask HN: How far can personal projects get you?

43 points by HighlandSpring 10y ago

I'm currently working on an application as a sort of showcase of my skillset. SPA frontend in Vue.js with a REST API in Scala using Spring. Although, it is a struggle to put what little time I have left after work into this. I'd also like to go on to turn it into a couple short blog posts where I can comment on what I've done and show I know what I'm talking about. It's also worth noting that I crash and burn at whiteboard problem solving and would far prefer takehome exercises so this is another thing to make my CV stand out. Those of you who were in a position of no work experience and a graduate degree (still working on mine) - just how significant of a role did your personal projects play in getting you hired somewhere you actually wanted to work? What kind of company was it? Was it ultimately worth pushing yourself towards doing it?

magic_beans 10y ago
It depends on the role you want, but for front-end developers having a portfolio is an ABSOLUTE MUST. Seriously. I didn't have a stellar portfolio, but the jobs I applied to got so many applicants with NO portfolio that I immediately stood out. The thing is -- your personal projects don't have to be front-page HN-worthy, but they should demonstrate skills that you'd be using on the job you're applying for.
- HighlandSpring 10y ago
  I don't have a particular passion for front-end but I do like to make an effort to learn how other applications implemented similar UI so that what I produce can pass as designed and not necessarily 'developer-made'. I'm in the UK but I would like to find myself somewhere "exciting" like the west coast of the US or somewhere in Asia. I need to be in a position where companies abroad justify the cost and hassle of a remote recruit.
  - crestedtazo 10y ago
    The West Coast of the US is objectively the greatest area for human beings to live on the planet. As someone who lives here, I believe that everyone born here is (or should be) extremely thankful for it, and anyone who isn't born here will likely spend their entire lives figuring out how to get here. :) Glad to see you already understand this. :)
- lalwanivikas 10y ago
  100% this. A good portfolio not only helps you stand out, but it has plenty of other benefits as well. I recently wrote about this in more detail: https://firstdevjob.com/posts/why-build-portfolio https://firstdevjob.com/posts/why-build-portfolio
madamelic 10y ago
Took an entrepreneurship class My group didn't want to work on our project (I was the only tech person in the group) Another group recruited me to build theirs. I was the only tech person willing to do the work in the group. I self-taught Angular and Javascript Attempted to get into an incubator with those people. Failed. Met up with another team wanting to build a startup. Built it. Launched it. Learned Meteor and expanded JS skills Graduated. Got job at startup writing JS. --- tl;dr: Pretty far.
- tedmiston 10y ago
  It's kind of crazy how many people go into entrepreneurship, in school and the real world, thinking they can succeed without doing a ton of work.
  - madamelic 10y ago
    Yeah, it is the reason I don't really work with people anymore on their startups anymore. Even "recruiting" a co-founder seems risky. At first, it was fun but after "co-founders" bailed on me twice because "it isn't fun anymore" (eg: what happens when you get into actually, you know, running the thing), I just stopped joining teams that didn't pay me. Everyone has an idea that they think will make them a millionaire or whatever. Either they need to pay me (money. None of this "equity-only" junk) or they need a proven track record of unstructured work and some killer skill I can't touch.
dbancajas 10y ago
pretty far. it goes a long way for a prospective manager that you are self-motivated
sfilargi 10y ago
Side projects is the best favor you can do to yourself IMHO. The benefits are lots: 0. You exercise your passion 1. You improve your coding skill 2. You learn new stuff 3. You build a portfolio 4. You network (if you decide to do your side-project in a group) 5. There is a slight chance that your project will succeed. I personally started spending all my free time in side projects about a year ago, and it was the best decision ever.
mamaniscalco 10y ago
At some point in the past each of us has had no work experience. Way back when I did not, my personal projects mirrored exactly what I was passionate about, which was data compression. Because I did what I was passionate about I was compelled to be more creative and I produced some very significant work including multiple novel compression techniques and solutions to related algorithmic problems. As with anything else in life chance plays a role as well and I was fortunate enough to have an opportunity to get a job with a company that specialized in just that - data compression. But, as the saying goes, chance favors the prepared (mind). Because I followed my passion I was prepared when the opportunity arrived and my personal projects all but ensured that I could get the job. That job was the best experience of my life and allowed me to continue to pursue my passions for another 15 years or so. You're personal projects, assuming they are really compelling to you and not exclusively to showcase your skill set, will be the strongest assets you have when an opportunity arises to do what you are passionate about. The degree will, likely, be far less important than your body of work. Follow your passion in your personal projects and you will be positioned well when the opportunity to pursue that same passion professionally presents itself. And you will likely be exceptionally well versed in the subject matter that is important to that employer as well since they will likely be considering you due of your body of work in the exactly the area where they are in need. Good luck.
dasil003 10y ago
When I first turned pro 17 years ago, my personal portfolio of projects dating back to high school certainly made a difference. 10 years ago when I moved to SV and joined a tech startup, it was my open source contributions that made the difference. Granted it was a simpler time back then, but I fundamentally believe in the idea of scratching ones own itch and showing the world. Maybe things are saturated now, and you won't stand out as much, but I still think shipping is the ultimate litmus test. If you can ship stuff by yourself that's one of the most powerful signals, and we are very fortunate how easy it is to do that as developers in the modern age. A lot of startups are aping Google/Facebook and trying to get the absolute smartest engineers they can find by casting a wide net and then aggressively culling so they end up with what they believe are the cream. If you really want to get into one of these then you need to practice algorithms and whiteboarding, you can improve at it. That said, passing a high interview bar says very little about your real value as a programmer. Companies like Google and Facebook have amazing technical knowledge and to work on, but your individual impact will rarely be detectable. And if you're not careful you end up with the golden hand cuffs in the sense that no other companies pay as well, and you won't really learn the hustling skills you need if you ever want to do your own thing.
segmondy 10y ago
As far as you take em. It's not necessarily that you get to demo your project and will get hired. It might happen, but it's more so the knowledge you acquire along the way. That will serve you well down the line.
matttheatheist 10y ago
My personal project (www.enrad.io) got me a nice job. Also, I'm still selling the units, making coin on the side.
psyc 10y ago
I have no degree. Personal projects played a huge part in helping me get jobs at Microsoft and Electronic Arts. Also, I'm very sure I'd be a shit programmer if I hadn't put tens of thousands of hours in at home.
- wapz 10y ago
  How did you put tens of thousands of hours at home? Are you referring to remote work in your house? Or did you somehow have enough money saved up to study for 10 hours a day, every day, for 6+ years?
  - psyc 10y ago
    I'm old, so I've had a lot more than 6 years. When I got my first job at a small unknown software company, I'd been programming in my spare time for 9 years already, and I estimate I had put in the proverbial 10,000 hours. I wasn't very good at that time, just good enough to get hired.
- iEchoic 10y ago
  I have a degree - and it was valuable - but I also feel that the thousands of hours at home was irreplaceable, and has played a huge part in being able to get the jobs I wanted. There are some things that are only learned by creating something very massive entirely by yourself, just like there are some things that are only learned by working on something big in a team.
rwieruch 10y ago
I see my website [0], where I teach React and JavaScript, as my personal project. It is time consuming, but in the end rewarding. Only some of the benefits I see: - improve communication skills - learn yourself by teaching others - it's open source, you give something back - maybe it is even good for your employer - personal branding, enhance own credibility - [0] https://www.robinwieruch.de/ https://www.robinwieruch.de/
iEchoic 10y ago
In college I had no work experience and wasn't going to a good enough school to work where I wanted based on my education alone. I spent two years making games in college, and it was extremely worthwhile. It played a big role in getting my dream job straight out of school, and made me a far better developer than I would have been otherwise. In my experience, it can get you pretty far. Having impressive side projects puts you ahead of the majority of applicants at most places.
poletopole 10y ago
I don't have a graduate degree, few do in your typical software company that's not a household name. However, employers are very interested in personal projects and want to know what you gained from building them. Professional experience trumps personal projects I would say, but something is better than nothing. Were my personal projects worth it? Yes, without them I probably wouldn't be employed. But it's easy to get lost in them, when sometimes you should move on. The better strategy is to take a job where you know you can introduce programming into your assignments, even if your job isn't a developer position.
mvpu 10y ago
In a nutshell, where a "sensible" person (engineering manager, engineer, founder..) is involved in front line recruiting (i.e they search, they look at applications), your projects are valuable. I found that in a lot of cases such people have a bias against resumes and will only consider candidates with side projects and a github profile. Mostly these would be early stage startups and some growth stage and large companies that believe in side projects. Where "recruiters" and "recruiting systems" do front line recruiting, projects don't matter. They're pattern matching resumes and looking for specific things they're told to look for. These would be growth stage startups and large companies, generally companies that hire in volumes and don't have the time or patience to holistically look at candidates. In short: don't work on projects just to showcase your skills and get hired - hiring is a crap shoot. Work on them because you love working on them, and believe that the world could benefit from them no matter how small.

magic_beans 10y ago

It depends on the role you want, but for front-end developers having a portfolio is an ABSOLUTE MUST. Seriously. I didn't have a stellar portfolio, but the jobs I applied to got so many applicants with NO portfolio that I immediately stood out. The thing is -- your personal projects don't have to be front-page HN-worthy, but they should demonstrate skills that you'd be using on the job you're applying for.

HighlandSpring 10y ago
I don't have a particular passion for front-end but I do like to make an effort to learn how other applications implemented similar UI so that what I produce can pass as designed and not necessarily 'developer-made'. I'm in the UK but I would like to find myself somewhere "exciting" like the west coast of the US or somewhere in Asia. I need to be in a position where companies abroad justify the cost and hassle of a remote recruit.
- crestedtazo 10y ago
  The West Coast of the US is objectively the greatest area for human beings to live on the planet. As someone who lives here, I believe that everyone born here is (or should be) extremely thankful for it, and anyone who isn't born here will likely spend their entire lives figuring out how to get here. :) Glad to see you already understand this. :)
lalwanivikas 10y ago
100% this. A good portfolio not only helps you stand out, but it has plenty of other benefits as well. I recently wrote about this in more detail: https://firstdevjob.com/posts/why-build-portfolio https://firstdevjob.com/posts/why-build-portfolio

madamelic 10y ago

Took an entrepreneurship class My group didn't want to work on our project (I was the only tech person in the group) Another group recruited me to build theirs. I was the only tech person willing to do the work in the group. I self-taught Angular and Javascript Attempted to get into an incubator with those people. Failed. Met up with another team wanting to build a startup. Built it. Launched it. Learned Meteor and expanded JS skills Graduated. Got job at startup writing JS. --- tl;dr: Pretty far.

tedmiston 10y ago
It's kind of crazy how many people go into entrepreneurship, in school and the real world, thinking they can succeed without doing a ton of work.
- madamelic 10y ago
  Yeah, it is the reason I don't really work with people anymore on their startups anymore. Even "recruiting" a co-founder seems risky. At first, it was fun but after "co-founders" bailed on me twice because "it isn't fun anymore" (eg: what happens when you get into actually, you know, running the thing), I just stopped joining teams that didn't pay me. Everyone has an idea that they think will make them a millionaire or whatever. Either they need to pay me (money. None of this "equity-only" junk) or they need a proven track record of unstructured work and some killer skill I can't touch.

dbancajas 10y ago

pretty far. it goes a long way for a prospective manager that you are self-motivated

sfilargi 10y ago

Side projects is the best favor you can do to yourself IMHO. The benefits are lots: 0. You exercise your passion 1. You improve your coding skill 2. You learn new stuff 3. You build a portfolio 4. You network (if you decide to do your side-project in a group) 5. There is a slight chance that your project will succeed. I personally started spending all my free time in side projects about a year ago, and it was the best decision ever.

mamaniscalco 10y ago

At some point in the past each of us has had no work experience. Way back when I did not, my personal projects mirrored exactly what I was passionate about, which was data compression. Because I did what I was passionate about I was compelled to be more creative and I produced some very significant work including multiple novel compression techniques and solutions to related algorithmic problems. As with anything else in life chance plays a role as well and I was fortunate enough to have an opportunity to get a job with a company that specialized in just that - data compression. But, as the saying goes, chance favors the prepared (mind). Because I followed my passion I was prepared when the opportunity arrived and my personal projects all but ensured that I could get the job. That job was the best experience of my life and allowed me to continue to pursue my passions for another 15 years or so. You're personal projects, assuming they are really compelling to you and not exclusively to showcase your skill set, will be the strongest assets you have when an opportunity arises to do what you are passionate about. The degree will, likely, be far less important than your body of work. Follow your passion in your personal projects and you will be positioned well when the opportunity to pursue that same passion professionally presents itself. And you will likely be exceptionally well versed in the subject matter that is important to that employer as well since they will likely be considering you due of your body of work in the exactly the area where they are in need. Good luck.

dasil003 10y ago

When I first turned pro 17 years ago, my personal portfolio of projects dating back to high school certainly made a difference. 10 years ago when I moved to SV and joined a tech startup, it was my open source contributions that made the difference. Granted it was a simpler time back then, but I fundamentally believe in the idea of scratching ones own itch and showing the world. Maybe things are saturated now, and you won't stand out as much, but I still think shipping is the ultimate litmus test. If you can ship stuff by yourself that's one of the most powerful signals, and we are very fortunate how easy it is to do that as developers in the modern age. A lot of startups are aping Google/Facebook and trying to get the absolute smartest engineers they can find by casting a wide net and then aggressively culling so they end up with what they believe are the cream. If you really want to get into one of these then you need to practice algorithms and whiteboarding, you can improve at it. That said, passing a high interview bar says very little about your real value as a programmer. Companies like Google and Facebook have amazing technical knowledge and to work on, but your individual impact will rarely be detectable. And if you're not careful you end up with the golden hand cuffs in the sense that no other companies pay as well, and you won't really learn the hustling skills you need if you ever want to do your own thing.

segmondy 10y ago

As far as you take em. It's not necessarily that you get to demo your project and will get hired. It might happen, but it's more so the knowledge you acquire along the way. That will serve you well down the line.

matttheatheist 10y ago

My personal project (www.enrad.io) got me a nice job. Also, I'm still selling the units, making coin on the side.

psyc 10y ago

I have no degree. Personal projects played a huge part in helping me get jobs at Microsoft and Electronic Arts. Also, I'm very sure I'd be a shit programmer if I hadn't put tens of thousands of hours in at home.

wapz 10y ago
How did you put tens of thousands of hours at home? Are you referring to remote work in your house? Or did you somehow have enough money saved up to study for 10 hours a day, every day, for 6+ years?
- psyc 10y ago
  I'm old, so I've had a lot more than 6 years. When I got my first job at a small unknown software company, I'd been programming in my spare time for 9 years already, and I estimate I had put in the proverbial 10,000 hours. I wasn't very good at that time, just good enough to get hired.
iEchoic 10y ago
I have a degree - and it was valuable - but I also feel that the thousands of hours at home was irreplaceable, and has played a huge part in being able to get the jobs I wanted. There are some things that are only learned by creating something very massive entirely by yourself, just like there are some things that are only learned by working on something big in a team.

rwieruch 10y ago

I see my website [0], where I teach React and JavaScript, as my personal project. It is time consuming, but in the end rewarding. Only some of the benefits I see: - improve communication skills - learn yourself by teaching others - it's open source, you give something back - maybe it is even good for your employer - personal branding, enhance own credibility - [0] https://www.robinwieruch.de/ https://www.robinwieruch.de/

iEchoic 10y ago

In college I had no work experience and wasn't going to a good enough school to work where I wanted based on my education alone. I spent two years making games in college, and it was extremely worthwhile. It played a big role in getting my dream job straight out of school, and made me a far better developer than I would have been otherwise. In my experience, it can get you pretty far. Having impressive side projects puts you ahead of the majority of applicants at most places.

poletopole 10y ago

I don't have a graduate degree, few do in your typical software company that's not a household name. However, employers are very interested in personal projects and want to know what you gained from building them. Professional experience trumps personal projects I would say, but something is better than nothing. Were my personal projects worth it? Yes, without them I probably wouldn't be employed. But it's easy to get lost in them, when sometimes you should move on. The better strategy is to take a job where you know you can introduce programming into your assignments, even if your job isn't a developer position.

mvpu 10y ago

In a nutshell, where a "sensible" person (engineering manager, engineer, founder..) is involved in front line recruiting (i.e they search, they look at applications), your projects are valuable. I found that in a lot of cases such people have a bias against resumes and will only consider candidates with side projects and a github profile. Mostly these would be early stage startups and some growth stage and large companies that believe in side projects. Where "recruiters" and "recruiting systems" do front line recruiting, projects don't matter. They're pattern matching resumes and looking for specific things they're told to look for. These would be growth stage startups and large companies, generally companies that hire in volumes and don't have the time or patience to holistically look at candidates. In short: don't work on projects just to showcase your skills and get hired - hiring is a crap shoot. Work on them because you love working on them, and believe that the world could benefit from them no matter how small.