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> automatically downloading of Windows 10 by Microsoft and bricking devices Downvote for falsely claiming PCs can be bricked[1], even more so by simply using W

> automatically downloading of Windows 10 by Microsoft and bricking devices Downvote for falsely claiming PCs can be bricked[1], even more so by simply using Window-update, which at worst might require a reinstall if the install is botched. [1] The definition of a brick is that something is now completely non-functional, beyond repair and thus "as useful as a brick". Something which can be recovered is by definition never a brick.

sametmax 10y ago
You are technically correct, but it's not the best kind of correct despite the meme. For any average user, it's a brick, which is what matters : they can't use it, lost all data, don't understand why, and will have to use SAV to have a working computer again.
joosters 10y ago
You are splitting hairs. My dad's PC was as useful as a brick to him after it downloaded Windows 7 and then wouldn't boot. If you think 'reinstall' is an acceptable or realistic solution for average users, you are badly mistaken.
- cptskippy 10y ago
  You act as if this is something unique to Microsoft. Ubuntu distro upgrades were so bad (don't know if they still are) that you were better off reformatting and reinstalling. If the upgrade didn't flat out brick the device, it was almost certain to screw up drivers and setting beyond repair of even more power users. Apple had it's fair share of El Capitan and Sierra upgrade brickings and those require you to take your Mac to a Store. The only difference is that Windows is 90% of the market so problems from them generate way more noise than any other OS.
  - reacweb 10y ago
    I do ubuntu dist-upgrade since 2009. I have done 2 full reinstall. Once to try linux-mint. And another one a little latter when I bought a new ssd drive (switched to ubuntu gnome). The main upgrade issue was with systemd in 16.04: it found a dependency loop between net access and my nas drive and decided to cancel net access.
    - cptskippy 10y ago
      I ran Ubuntu on a netbook and a laptop from ~2007-2012. Wireless support was beyond awful and distro upgrades would break it beyond repair. There were also numerous bugs with Audio and their transition in desktop environments failed horribly.
      - jimmies 10y ago
        2012 was a very different time. Stuff sucked so much back then, especially wireless. It doesn't help, also, that most people don't buy hardware for Linux but expect it to run on a random machine that they spared. Buy good hardware (Thinkpads, Chromebooks), do research, never worry about stuff not working.
      - hpcjoe 10y ago
        Linuxmint based on Ubuntu has been my go to since 2013. Everything I want just works. I use debian on my servers with the occasional rhel/centos for those folks who want or need that. Windows never touches bare metal around me anymore. That has been the cause of so much pain and lost time ... Virtualize it, put specific snapshots on the vm, and I've got a working Windows in a window.
  - joosters 10y ago
    If we're talking anecdotes, then I should mention that I've had very little problem with many Ubuntu installs and Mac installs. Certainly no 'brickings'. But you're missing the point. My Dad did not ask to install Windows 10 (n.b. I put the wrong version in my first post), Microsoft did that for him. Other OS upgrades may not be perfect, but at least they give users the choice.
- josteink 10y ago
  > You are splitting hairs. My dad's PC was as useful as a brick to him But it was recoverable. You could just boot some installation medium, and you were good to go again. You didn't have to throw the PC away. It was not converted into garbage. See how that makes a difference? It's not a brick.
jimmies 10y ago
>bricking devices by Microsoft's friends I didn't say it bricked the PC -- but they literally did brick shit that gets plugged in to the PC. It's a binary blob that comes with windows update and it breaks your hardware, intentionally. http://hackaday.com/2016/02/01/ftdi-drivers-break-fake-chips-again/ http://hackaday.com/2016/02/01/ftdi-drivers-break-fake-chips... It is a brick, because (1) It was working before, it doesn't work now, (2) The hardware is fucked, you plug into another computer, it still won't work (3) You can't expect anyone except for the experts to be able to fix it.
- cptskippy 10y ago
  So it's Microsoft's fault that a vendor supplied drivers that were designed to keep fake competitor's devices from using their tech by disabling them? Microsoft isn't doing code reviews of drivers and it would be outrageous to expect them to do so.
  - jimmies 10y ago
    Sure -- MS made it impossible to review the code given to them by the manufacturer. It's a Windows', or in other words, proprietary software problem. Do we have that problem with Linux?
    - cptskippy 10y ago
      Sure, off the top of my head Nvidia drivers contain a binary blob you don't get to see. Does it brick fake hardware? No but this is a very special case. Is it out of the realm of possibility that a vendor could ship a kernel module with a proprietary binary that could damage your hardware? Absolutely. Why would people accept these proprietary closed blobs over the open alternative drivers? Because the open drivers suck. Can you fix that? Not in the near term. So how is this not a problem for Linux? It's a problem there too.
      - jimmies 10y ago
        If you use Nvidia, then the open driver sucks. It is like GIMP sucks, and that's a very real problem. But the open drivers don't brick my hardware, GIMP doesn't go and send my shit to the cloud without me knowing it, and won't refuse to let me edit whatever I want (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EURion_constellation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EURion_constellation). This is a trade-off I am willing to make - that is all, nd I have mentioned it from the beginning.

sametmax 10y ago

You are technically correct, but it's not the best kind of correct despite the meme. For any average user, it's a brick, which is what matters : they can't use it, lost all data, don't understand why, and will have to use SAV to have a working computer again.

joosters 10y ago

You are splitting hairs. My dad's PC was as useful as a brick to him after it downloaded Windows 7 and then wouldn't boot. If you think 'reinstall' is an acceptable or realistic solution for average users, you are badly mistaken.

cptskippy 10y ago
You act as if this is something unique to Microsoft. Ubuntu distro upgrades were so bad (don't know if they still are) that you were better off reformatting and reinstalling. If the upgrade didn't flat out brick the device, it was almost certain to screw up drivers and setting beyond repair of even more power users. Apple had it's fair share of El Capitan and Sierra upgrade brickings and those require you to take your Mac to a Store. The only difference is that Windows is 90% of the market so problems from them generate way more noise than any other OS.
- reacweb 10y ago
  I do ubuntu dist-upgrade since 2009. I have done 2 full reinstall. Once to try linux-mint. And another one a little latter when I bought a new ssd drive (switched to ubuntu gnome). The main upgrade issue was with systemd in 16.04: it found a dependency loop between net access and my nas drive and decided to cancel net access.
  - cptskippy 10y ago
    I ran Ubuntu on a netbook and a laptop from ~2007-2012. Wireless support was beyond awful and distro upgrades would break it beyond repair. There were also numerous bugs with Audio and their transition in desktop environments failed horribly.
    - jimmies 10y ago
      2012 was a very different time. Stuff sucked so much back then, especially wireless. It doesn't help, also, that most people don't buy hardware for Linux but expect it to run on a random machine that they spared. Buy good hardware (Thinkpads, Chromebooks), do research, never worry about stuff not working.
    - hpcjoe 10y ago
      Linuxmint based on Ubuntu has been my go to since 2013. Everything I want just works. I use debian on my servers with the occasional rhel/centos for those folks who want or need that. Windows never touches bare metal around me anymore. That has been the cause of so much pain and lost time ... Virtualize it, put specific snapshots on the vm, and I've got a working Windows in a window.
- joosters 10y ago
  If we're talking anecdotes, then I should mention that I've had very little problem with many Ubuntu installs and Mac installs. Certainly no 'brickings'. But you're missing the point. My Dad did not ask to install Windows 10 (n.b. I put the wrong version in my first post), Microsoft did that for him. Other OS upgrades may not be perfect, but at least they give users the choice.
josteink 10y ago
> You are splitting hairs. My dad's PC was as useful as a brick to him But it was recoverable. You could just boot some installation medium, and you were good to go again. You didn't have to throw the PC away. It was not converted into garbage. See how that makes a difference? It's not a brick.

jimmies 10y ago

>bricking devices by Microsoft's friends I didn't say it bricked the PC -- but they literally did brick shit that gets plugged in to the PC. It's a binary blob that comes with windows update and it breaks your hardware, intentionally. http://hackaday.com/2016/02/01/ftdi-drivers-break-fake-chips-again/ http://hackaday.com/2016/02/01/ftdi-drivers-break-fake-chips... It is a brick, because (1) It was working before, it doesn't work now, (2) The hardware is fucked, you plug into another computer, it still won't work (3) You can't expect anyone except for the experts to be able to fix it.

cptskippy 10y ago
So it's Microsoft's fault that a vendor supplied drivers that were designed to keep fake competitor's devices from using their tech by disabling them? Microsoft isn't doing code reviews of drivers and it would be outrageous to expect them to do so.
- jimmies 10y ago
  Sure -- MS made it impossible to review the code given to them by the manufacturer. It's a Windows', or in other words, proprietary software problem. Do we have that problem with Linux?
  - cptskippy 10y ago
    Sure, off the top of my head Nvidia drivers contain a binary blob you don't get to see. Does it brick fake hardware? No but this is a very special case. Is it out of the realm of possibility that a vendor could ship a kernel module with a proprietary binary that could damage your hardware? Absolutely. Why would people accept these proprietary closed blobs over the open alternative drivers? Because the open drivers suck. Can you fix that? Not in the near term. So how is this not a problem for Linux? It's a problem there too.
    - jimmies 10y ago
      If you use Nvidia, then the open driver sucks. It is like GIMP sucks, and that's a very real problem. But the open drivers don't brick my hardware, GIMP doesn't go and send my shit to the cloud without me knowing it, and won't refuse to let me edit whatever I want (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EURion_constellation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EURion_constellation). This is a trade-off I am willing to make - that is all, nd I have mentioned it from the beginning.