5 ms·

Archaeologists find early democratic societies in the Americas

56 points by Thevet 10y ago

GuB-42 10y ago
I have a feeling this topic will degenerate quickly...
ch4s3 10y ago
This is an interesting read, and I particularly thought it was illuminating with respect to the Indus Valley Civilisation.
twblalock 10y ago
The contention about democracy in the title of the article is undermined by the disagreements between archaeologists that are cited in the article itself. I know that the authors of the articles don't always get to pick the titles, but come on.
douche 10y ago
Every time one of these archaeology articles comes up, I'm reminded about what thin reeds most of these theories are based upon. It's the blind men and the elephant, except the pieces available for inspection are even smaller, and the conclusions more sweeping.
- astrodust 10y ago
  Doesn't help that a large part of that history was kept as oral tradition, and those who remembered it were starved, shot, died by disease and outright murdered over the last few centuries.
  - Synaesthesia 10y ago
    American Holocaust by David Stannard was a tough read for sure. I didn't know about the extent to which the genocide of the American Indians was a real deliberate and conscious act. But the book convinced me.
  - omginternets 10y ago
    What's your point? The fact that these people suffered has literally no bearing on the fact that the theory is built on shaky grounds (according to the parent poster, that is).
    - astrodust 10y ago
      My point is you can say there's not a lot of evidence but you can't ignore why this is the case. Destroying people was destroying evidence.
- jcranmer 10y ago
  There are three cases in history where civilizations left written scripts that were lost to history and have subsequently been decoded (Mayan script, Egyptian hieroglyphs, and Sumerian cuneiform). In the intervening period, archaeologists have attempted to reconstruct history without knowledge of what the scripts meant, which means we can use those scripts as a means of checking how good the archaeological reconstructions were. In the case of the Maya (the only one with which I have some familiarity), the results are atrocious. Being able to read the Mayan script completely changed our understanding of how they acted. The major view had been that the Maya were basically a peaceful scientific/religious culture, whereas the decipherment of the script show them to be no less violent than the other Mesoamerican civilizations. Those markings on everything that to make reference to the gods? They really just say "property of <name>".
ravenstine 10y ago
On a similar topic, for those unfamiliar with the Iroquois Confederacy, the wikipedia article itself is an interesting read: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iroquois https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iroquois In essence, they were a sort of "united states" before the United States we know today. Although the wikipedia article provides sparse evidence for this, it's theorized that the 6 Nations influenced the founders in shaping the early [western] American government. So many fascinating aspects of American history and pre-Columbian have been overlooked, sadly, because we have tended to view the natives as either savages or "noble savages".
- spraak 10y ago
  E.g. "IROQUOIS CONSTITUTION: A FORERUNNER TO COLONISTS' DEMOCRATIC PRINCIPLES" (1987) http://www.nytimes.com/1987/06/28/us/iroquois-constitution-a-forerunner-to-colonists-democratic-principles.html http://www.nytimes.com/1987/06/28/us/iroquois-constitution-a...
- jcranmer 10y ago
  It's unlikely that the Iroquois Confederacy was much of a model for American government. The most notable reference to them in records we have from the founding fathers amounts to "well, if even savages like the Iroquois can have a democratic government, why can't we?" Consider instead the wealth of quotations to Enlightenment philosophers, the English Civil War, Greco-Roman antecedents, etc.
Maultasche 10y ago
Interestingly, Tlaxcala, in reward for allying with the Spanish conquistadores, because an autonomous colony independent of the rest of Mexico (but subject to the King of Spain like the other Spanish colonies). The brutal repression and enslavement of the natives also didn't apply to Tlaxcala. They seemed to do pretty well for themselves during the colonial period. Tlaxcala didn't become a part of the rest of Mexico until it was absorbed when Mexico became independent from Spain. The Wikipedia article is a pretty interesting read. In reading the accounts of Bernal Diaz del Castillo, who accompanied Cortez to Mexico, I think it's pretty clear that the Tlaxcalans were definitely the deciding factor in the Spanish victory. Despite their technological superiority, the Spanish had small numbers, and they would have been soundly beaten by the Aztecs (called Mexica by Bernal Diaz) if it hadn't been for the Tlaxcalan army assisting them. That book is a fascinating read.

56 points by Thevet 10y ago

I have a feeling this topic will degenerate quickly...

ch4s3 10y ago

This is an interesting read, and I particularly thought it was illuminating with respect to the Indus Valley Civilisation.

twblalock 10y ago

The contention about democracy in the title of the article is undermined by the disagreements between archaeologists that are cited in the article itself. I know that the authors of the articles don't always get to pick the titles, but come on.

douche 10y ago

Every time one of these archaeology articles comes up, I'm reminded about what thin reeds most of these theories are based upon. It's the blind men and the elephant, except the pieces available for inspection are even smaller, and the conclusions more sweeping.

astrodust 10y ago
Doesn't help that a large part of that history was kept as oral tradition, and those who remembered it were starved, shot, died by disease and outright murdered over the last few centuries.
- Synaesthesia 10y ago
  American Holocaust by David Stannard was a tough read for sure. I didn't know about the extent to which the genocide of the American Indians was a real deliberate and conscious act. But the book convinced me.
- omginternets 10y ago
  What's your point? The fact that these people suffered has literally no bearing on the fact that the theory is built on shaky grounds (according to the parent poster, that is).
  - astrodust 10y ago
    My point is you can say there's not a lot of evidence but you can't ignore why this is the case. Destroying people was destroying evidence.
jcranmer 10y ago
There are three cases in history where civilizations left written scripts that were lost to history and have subsequently been decoded (Mayan script, Egyptian hieroglyphs, and Sumerian cuneiform). In the intervening period, archaeologists have attempted to reconstruct history without knowledge of what the scripts meant, which means we can use those scripts as a means of checking how good the archaeological reconstructions were. In the case of the Maya (the only one with which I have some familiarity), the results are atrocious. Being able to read the Mayan script completely changed our understanding of how they acted. The major view had been that the Maya were basically a peaceful scientific/religious culture, whereas the decipherment of the script show them to be no less violent than the other Mesoamerican civilizations. Those markings on everything that to make reference to the gods? They really just say "property of <name>".

ravenstine 10y ago

On a similar topic, for those unfamiliar with the Iroquois Confederacy, the wikipedia article itself is an interesting read: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iroquois https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iroquois In essence, they were a sort of "united states" before the United States we know today. Although the wikipedia article provides sparse evidence for this, it's theorized that the 6 Nations influenced the founders in shaping the early [western] American government. So many fascinating aspects of American history and pre-Columbian have been overlooked, sadly, because we have tended to view the natives as either savages or "noble savages".

spraak 10y ago
E.g. "IROQUOIS CONSTITUTION: A FORERUNNER TO COLONISTS' DEMOCRATIC PRINCIPLES" (1987) http://www.nytimes.com/1987/06/28/us/iroquois-constitution-a-forerunner-to-colonists-democratic-principles.html http://www.nytimes.com/1987/06/28/us/iroquois-constitution-a...
jcranmer 10y ago
It's unlikely that the Iroquois Confederacy was much of a model for American government. The most notable reference to them in records we have from the founding fathers amounts to "well, if even savages like the Iroquois can have a democratic government, why can't we?" Consider instead the wealth of quotations to Enlightenment philosophers, the English Civil War, Greco-Roman antecedents, etc.

Maultasche 10y ago

Interestingly, Tlaxcala, in reward for allying with the Spanish conquistadores, because an autonomous colony independent of the rest of Mexico (but subject to the King of Spain like the other Spanish colonies). The brutal repression and enslavement of the natives also didn't apply to Tlaxcala. They seemed to do pretty well for themselves during the colonial period. Tlaxcala didn't become a part of the rest of Mexico until it was absorbed when Mexico became independent from Spain. The Wikipedia article is a pretty interesting read. In reading the accounts of Bernal Diaz del Castillo, who accompanied Cortez to Mexico, I think it's pretty clear that the Tlaxcalans were definitely the deciding factor in the Spanish victory. Despite their technological superiority, the Spanish had small numbers, and they would have been soundly beaten by the Aztecs (called Mexica by Bernal Diaz) if it hadn't been for the Tlaxcalan army assisting them. That book is a fascinating read.