4 ms·

All his life, he had been comfortable being alone. Interacting with others was so often frustrating. Every meeting with another person seemed like a collision.

by Mz 10y ago

All his life, he had been comfortable being alone. Interacting with others was so often frustrating. Every meeting with another person seemed like a collision. If he were growing up today, they would likely give him some diagnosis on the Autism Spectrum or some related diagnosis and try to give him meds and force him to somehow fit in. For as long as humans have existed, there have been those that don't connect well socially. We may label them and pontificate and categorize, but this has always been true and is not likely to change. Perhaps we should get over our arrogant idea of normal.

DiabloD3 10y ago
I don't understand why parent is being downvoted. As someone who was diagnosed with Aspergers, and someone that greatly dislikes annoying, confusing, and overly excited people that rely almost entirely on certain forms of non-verbal social cues to communicate (to the point I think they're just as broken as I am, just in the exact opposite way; they seemingly lack the ability to use words and logic to convey ideas, preferring emotions and impulsivity to interact with the world and others)... I actually understand the hermit to some extent. I do believe that he could easily suffer from something the DSM V considers on the spectrum. It is unfortunate that society's supports fell through for him.
- sanswork 10y ago
  Probably because instead of taking the position that support fell through for him she sounds as if she is glorifying the result.
  - Mz 10y ago
    I have no idea at all how you can draw the conclusion that I am glorifying this. Quite the opposite. This pathological outcome is partly due to the fact that "normal" people are such assholes to anyone who doesn't readily fit into their social expectations. People who supposedly have all kinds of social skills often merely use them to torture people who don't have them instead of using their savvy to bridge the gap.
    - sanswork 10y ago
      >If he were growing up today, they would likely give him some diagnosis on the Autism Spectrum or some related diagnosis and try to give him meds and force him to somehow fit in. That sounds like you're saying that being able to fit in is a bad thing when talking about a guy who lived in the wilderness alone stealing from people for 25 years as a better alternative.
      - Mz 10y ago
        I still have no idea how you are getting that interpretation. The only thing it suggests is that forcing people to "fit in" instead of helping them figure out how to happily be themselves actively causes problems. I can't see your interpretation even if I squint hard and try to read it that way. Shaving a metaphorical square peg rarely gets you a round one that works beautifully. Usually, it just gets you a misshapen, mutilated thing that is neither square nor round.
        sanswork 10y ago
        >If he were growing up today, they would likely give him some diagnosis on the Autism Spectrum or some related diagnosis and try to give him meds and force him to somehow fit in. The way you've written this makes is sound like you're saying that current medicine and techniques to help autistic people are bad(give him meds and force him to somehow fit in) and that his solution of running off into the forest to avoid all human contact and surviving off theft is a better solution. If that isn't what you mean then you've worded your point badly. >For as long as humans have existed, there have been those that don't connect well socially. We may label them and pontificate and categorize, but this has always been true and is not likely to change Ok but for as long as humans have existed they've needed societies to help them survive. The article even makes that point with regards to historical hermits needing to sell stuff to buy food. There is a reason exile was one of the harshest punishments available in a lot of historic cultures. >Perhaps we should get over our arrogant idea of normal. But participating in society IS normal. No arrogance needed. That doesn't mean that people who have difficulty with it are bad but it does mean they aren't normal.
- Mz 10y ago
  I sent the article to my oldest son because it made me think of him. He replied with: I was sort of thinking about how, if I'd had a different life, I could see myself doing much the same. Maybe a bit more planned. Maybe not. I was always okay with him being him and did not try to force him to be more social. I helped him figure out how to interact with society on his terms. For example, he likes going to stores with self-checkout so he doesn't have to deal with a cashier. Self-checkout exists and many people use them for many reasons. One of his big motivators is that dealing with people is hard, even for just the brief interaction of paying for his purchase.
  - digler999 10y ago
    > One of his big motivators is that dealing with people is hard, even for just the brief interaction of paying for his purchase. this is a fine line though. If you have some level of social anxiety, avoiding social contact is about the worst you can do for it. It's allowing the fear to control you. A better solution is to work your way through the social anxeity, learning organic ways to "grease the gears" and make situations pleasant to both parties. I had to learn this in my late teens/early 20s. I was withdrawing more and more, stone-faced all the time in public places such as the grocery store. I'd park behind the store just so I didn't have the hassle of interactions in the parking lot. That's letting anxiety reign over you. Cognitive distortions [1] can send you on a downward trajectory where avoidance is the norm and you to go greater and more extreme lengths to mitigate the "problem". I learned that a smile, saying "hi, how are you?" or "excuse me" seem to make most interactions at least 50 "percent" less uncomfortable compared to unemotional silence, which I've seen in psychology books as a sign of hostility. Now, if you are autistic and have something inhibiting your ability to understand social cues, then "just facing it" wont work, but even people on the spectrum can learn to improve their situation through a skilled therapist. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_distortion https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_distortion
    - esun 10y ago
      I remember clearly the day when I decided the work of pushing my items through the shitty self-checkout scanner (the clerk's scanner is way better) and bagging my own stuff was a waste of time vs saying four or five pre-rehearsed words and letting the nice clerk do it for me. "Hello!" <clerk something something pleasant> "It's nice outside" Now I understand the clerk would also rather just jam my shit through the scanner and point at the payment total and grunt. I think of it as the chatter when two modems connect. Some noise and then a little signal then we are done.
- stagbeetle 10y ago
  > annoying, confusing, and overly excited people that rely almost entirely on certain forms of non-verbal social cues to communicate (to the point I think they're just as broken as I am, just in the exact opposite way; they seemingly lack the ability to use words and logic to convey ideas, preferring emotions and impulsivity to interact with the world and others)... Hello, ADHD here.
sebringj 10y ago
Hmm. Not quite feeling your idea of arrogance. If this wasn't unusual, it wouldn't be newsworthy. Case closed. However, you didn't write anything offensive and have your own point which is valid. Nothing to down vote IMO.
jdc0589 10y ago
TIL, I'm mildly autistic.
- rimliu 10y ago
  Or just introvert. It was news to discover while reading "Quiet" that introversion is almost considered a disease in the US. Another shocking discovery was about top schools preferring extroverts to maybe smarter but introverted students.
  - Mz 10y ago
    Yes. Exactly. This is part of my point. Modern America pathologizes and medicalizes all kinds of things that are well within the norm for human behavior. But, hey, doctors and other experts don't get paid the big bucks to say "He's just shy." You can't prescribe expensive meds if you respect people's differences.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
deleted 10y ago
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drcross 10y ago
>try to give him meds and force him to somehow fit in. For the vast majority or people we tether between fear of social exclusion and over-confidence. In theory, social interaction it easy; its just people conversing about shared interests. If you are willing to take the chance at making friendship your life can be so much richer and they will most likely live longer. It's easy to find excuses not to interact but we all have to try. People like Christopher Knight are outliers and probably beyond help but it doesn't mean there shouldn't apply the slightest societal pressure to people to form relationships because not doing so means a deconstruction of society.
- Mz 10y ago
  When forcing someone is used to make sure sex happens, they call that rape and list it as a crime in the legal code. In spite of what a lot of people think, the definition of rape hinges on the detail of consent, not how rough it was. Some acts of rape do not look very different from consensual sex in terms of mechanics, but it is a loathsome experience for the person who did not want this. I think that principle generalizes pretty well. There are better ways to deal with people like this than forcing them to do something and insisting it is for their own good. Friendship that is not based upon real respect is not genuine friendship.
  - drcross 10y ago
    That's an insultingly bad comparison.
    - deleted 10y ago
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deleted 10y ago
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by Mz 10y ago

DiabloD3 10y ago

I don't understand why parent is being downvoted. As someone who was diagnosed with Aspergers, and someone that greatly dislikes annoying, confusing, and overly excited people that rely almost entirely on certain forms of non-verbal social cues to communicate (to the point I think they're just as broken as I am, just in the exact opposite way; they seemingly lack the ability to use words and logic to convey ideas, preferring emotions and impulsivity to interact with the world and others)... I actually understand the hermit to some extent. I do believe that he could easily suffer from something the DSM V considers on the spectrum. It is unfortunate that society's supports fell through for him.

sanswork 10y ago
Probably because instead of taking the position that support fell through for him she sounds as if she is glorifying the result.
- Mz 10y ago
  I have no idea at all how you can draw the conclusion that I am glorifying this. Quite the opposite. This pathological outcome is partly due to the fact that "normal" people are such assholes to anyone who doesn't readily fit into their social expectations. People who supposedly have all kinds of social skills often merely use them to torture people who don't have them instead of using their savvy to bridge the gap.
  - sanswork 10y ago
    >If he were growing up today, they would likely give him some diagnosis on the Autism Spectrum or some related diagnosis and try to give him meds and force him to somehow fit in. That sounds like you're saying that being able to fit in is a bad thing when talking about a guy who lived in the wilderness alone stealing from people for 25 years as a better alternative.
    - Mz 10y ago
      I still have no idea how you are getting that interpretation. The only thing it suggests is that forcing people to "fit in" instead of helping them figure out how to happily be themselves actively causes problems. I can't see your interpretation even if I squint hard and try to read it that way. Shaving a metaphorical square peg rarely gets you a round one that works beautifully. Usually, it just gets you a misshapen, mutilated thing that is neither square nor round.
      - sanswork 10y ago
        >If he were growing up today, they would likely give him some diagnosis on the Autism Spectrum or some related diagnosis and try to give him meds and force him to somehow fit in. The way you've written this makes is sound like you're saying that current medicine and techniques to help autistic people are bad(give him meds and force him to somehow fit in) and that his solution of running off into the forest to avoid all human contact and surviving off theft is a better solution. If that isn't what you mean then you've worded your point badly. >For as long as humans have existed, there have been those that don't connect well socially. We may label them and pontificate and categorize, but this has always been true and is not likely to change Ok but for as long as humans have existed they've needed societies to help them survive. The article even makes that point with regards to historical hermits needing to sell stuff to buy food. There is a reason exile was one of the harshest punishments available in a lot of historic cultures. >Perhaps we should get over our arrogant idea of normal. But participating in society IS normal. No arrogance needed. That doesn't mean that people who have difficulty with it are bad but it does mean they aren't normal.
Mz 10y ago
I sent the article to my oldest son because it made me think of him. He replied with: I was sort of thinking about how, if I'd had a different life, I could see myself doing much the same. Maybe a bit more planned. Maybe not. I was always okay with him being him and did not try to force him to be more social. I helped him figure out how to interact with society on his terms. For example, he likes going to stores with self-checkout so he doesn't have to deal with a cashier. Self-checkout exists and many people use them for many reasons. One of his big motivators is that dealing with people is hard, even for just the brief interaction of paying for his purchase.
- digler999 10y ago
  > One of his big motivators is that dealing with people is hard, even for just the brief interaction of paying for his purchase. this is a fine line though. If you have some level of social anxiety, avoiding social contact is about the worst you can do for it. It's allowing the fear to control you. A better solution is to work your way through the social anxeity, learning organic ways to "grease the gears" and make situations pleasant to both parties. I had to learn this in my late teens/early 20s. I was withdrawing more and more, stone-faced all the time in public places such as the grocery store. I'd park behind the store just so I didn't have the hassle of interactions in the parking lot. That's letting anxiety reign over you. Cognitive distortions [1] can send you on a downward trajectory where avoidance is the norm and you to go greater and more extreme lengths to mitigate the "problem". I learned that a smile, saying "hi, how are you?" or "excuse me" seem to make most interactions at least 50 "percent" less uncomfortable compared to unemotional silence, which I've seen in psychology books as a sign of hostility. Now, if you are autistic and have something inhibiting your ability to understand social cues, then "just facing it" wont work, but even people on the spectrum can learn to improve their situation through a skilled therapist. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_distortion https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_distortion
  - esun 10y ago
    I remember clearly the day when I decided the work of pushing my items through the shitty self-checkout scanner (the clerk's scanner is way better) and bagging my own stuff was a waste of time vs saying four or five pre-rehearsed words and letting the nice clerk do it for me. "Hello!" <clerk something something pleasant> "It's nice outside" Now I understand the clerk would also rather just jam my shit through the scanner and point at the payment total and grunt. I think of it as the chatter when two modems connect. Some noise and then a little signal then we are done.
stagbeetle 10y ago
> annoying, confusing, and overly excited people that rely almost entirely on certain forms of non-verbal social cues to communicate (to the point I think they're just as broken as I am, just in the exact opposite way; they seemingly lack the ability to use words and logic to convey ideas, preferring emotions and impulsivity to interact with the world and others)... Hello, ADHD here.

sebringj 10y ago

Hmm. Not quite feeling your idea of arrogance. If this wasn't unusual, it wouldn't be newsworthy. Case closed. However, you didn't write anything offensive and have your own point which is valid. Nothing to down vote IMO.

jdc0589 10y ago

TIL, I'm mildly autistic.

rimliu 10y ago
Or just introvert. It was news to discover while reading "Quiet" that introversion is almost considered a disease in the US. Another shocking discovery was about top schools preferring extroverts to maybe smarter but introverted students.
- Mz 10y ago
  Yes. Exactly. This is part of my point. Modern America pathologizes and medicalizes all kinds of things that are well within the norm for human behavior. But, hey, doctors and other experts don't get paid the big bucks to say "He's just shy." You can't prescribe expensive meds if you respect people's differences.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

drcross 10y ago

>try to give him meds and force him to somehow fit in. For the vast majority or people we tether between fear of social exclusion and over-confidence. In theory, social interaction it easy; its just people conversing about shared interests. If you are willing to take the chance at making friendship your life can be so much richer and they will most likely live longer. It's easy to find excuses not to interact but we all have to try. People like Christopher Knight are outliers and probably beyond help but it doesn't mean there shouldn't apply the slightest societal pressure to people to form relationships because not doing so means a deconstruction of society.

Mz 10y ago
When forcing someone is used to make sure sex happens, they call that rape and list it as a crime in the legal code. In spite of what a lot of people think, the definition of rape hinges on the detail of consent, not how rough it was. Some acts of rape do not look very different from consensual sex in terms of mechanics, but it is a loathsome experience for the person who did not want this. I think that principle generalizes pretty well. There are better ways to deal with people like this than forcing them to do something and insisting it is for their own good. Friendship that is not based upon real respect is not genuine friendship.
- drcross 10y ago
  That's an insultingly bad comparison.
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deleted 10y ago

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