4 ms·

Debunking the myth of higher pay in Silicon Valley

13 points by Mz 10y ago

astrange 10y ago
> In the Bay Area, the average one-bedroom apartment is $3,336 USD ($4,470 CAD) per month. It isn't. If they want Silicon Valley they should be checking San Jose-Mountain View prices, not SF. Checking recently it seems to be $1900 for an old 1-bedroom or $2400 for a "nice" one.
- micaksica 10y ago
  I'm beginning to find the "Silicon Valley" / "San Francisco" divide to be quaint pedantry at this point. Culturally to these kids I have met in interviews and career fairs, there is absolutely no distinction. If you are in the tech industry and you live somewhere west of the Caldecott Tunnel, South of the Golden Gate Bridge, and north of, say, Morgan Hill, you are in "Silicon Valley". Just because the region was mapped differently in its Fairchild Semiconductor days, or I guess even the dotcom days, doesn't mean that the definition has not expanded since. A lot of people that move out here want to live in the city and commute into their offices, and a lot of the new unicorns are SF-city-based. The cost of living in SF completely matters to many that think they can live there and work in the greater Peninsula.
JamilD 10y ago
I've lived and worked in both Toronto and Silicon Valley, and it's not even close. SV has a way better quality of life than Toronto, even for the marginally higher rent. I paid $2600 for a two bedroom in San Jose -- split that with another person and it's only $1300. I'd be paying more for a studio in downtown Toronto anyway. And you can't just look at it from the perspective of money. I need to be in a city with things to do, preferably one that isn't practically uninhabitable 6 months of the year. You couldn't pay me to live in Kitchener-Waterloo.
- johan_larson 10y ago
  Practically uninhabitable is rather a strong claim. What sort of climate did you grow up in?
  - JamilD 10y ago
    I'm exaggerating of course. Born and raised in Toronto. It's more an inconvenience, not wanting to spend much time outside in the winter. I think everybody generally goes out less in the winter months -- it's a problem you don't generally have even in marginally warmer climates south of the border (or in, say, Vancouver)
- ouid 10y ago
  The example apartment the author presented is in soma, which is in the very heart of downtown sf.
  - JamilD 10y ago
    Which is an unfair comparison to make in the first place. Waterloo is an hour and a half away from downtown Toronto -- further than SJ from SF.
peterburkimsher 10y ago
Although I never worked in Toronto or Silicon Valley, I've had the same experience in Taiwan. Salaries in Kaohsiung are low, but the cost of living is much lower. Many young people move to Taipei to earn more, but end up saving less. People who stay usually aren't here for the money. That reduces inequality, and I feel subjectively safer. YMMV.
babesh 10y ago
Many people share an apartment and get free weekday meals from the company. The utility also seems high since heating and cooling aren't necessary for much of the year.
outworlder 10y ago
> In the Bay Area, the average one-bedroom apartment is $3,336 USD ($4,470 CAD) per month. Looking for a two-bedroom? The average price is $4,469 No it isn't. That is true in San Francisco, but there's more to the Bay Area than SF. Of course, by not living in SF, you'll have to commute there – if your job happens to be in SF; there's plenty of opportunity all over the Bay. Which is a pain regardless of transportation mode and should be factored in the quality of life comparison.
tostitos1979 10y ago
Why are tech salaries so bloody low in Canada? It is really disheartening that many union jobs that don't require the same level of skill end up getting far more compensation. I once had a a good CS student tell me he was getting a truck(more than a decade ago). when he told me the math I could not argue with him. Just tell me how someone can afford a million dollar house in Toronto on a local tech salary?
win_ini 10y ago
This may work for a young, single person. I'm a Toronto native but I work remotely for a Toronto-based company after moving to SF several years ago. After having a kid, SF Bay Area becomes pretty unbearable - I've lived in the mission, Redwood City and Burlingame over the years - education expenses, commuting times and rent all add up. Even with my wife being a successful tech sales person and my decent but non-exceptional salary. We moved to Lake Tahoe recently and it's been really nice - remote working is the best of both worlds. If you're a good engineer and can deal with working remote - it can be a great decision. Regular trips back to Toronto for work are a bonus - I get to see my family regularly. I'm sure Waterlooser has become cooler since I last visited 15 years ago, but I suspect it's still not really comparable to downtown Toronto for a young single person. Maybe better for a family. But that wasn't the salary/living situation being compared.

13 points by Mz 10y ago

> In the Bay Area, the average one-bedroom apartment is $3,336 USD ($4,470 CAD) per month. It isn't. If they want Silicon Valley they should be checking San Jose-Mountain View prices, not SF. Checking recently it seems to be $1900 for an old 1-bedroom or $2400 for a "nice" one.

micaksica 10y ago
I'm beginning to find the "Silicon Valley" / "San Francisco" divide to be quaint pedantry at this point. Culturally to these kids I have met in interviews and career fairs, there is absolutely no distinction. If you are in the tech industry and you live somewhere west of the Caldecott Tunnel, South of the Golden Gate Bridge, and north of, say, Morgan Hill, you are in "Silicon Valley". Just because the region was mapped differently in its Fairchild Semiconductor days, or I guess even the dotcom days, doesn't mean that the definition has not expanded since. A lot of people that move out here want to live in the city and commute into their offices, and a lot of the new unicorns are SF-city-based. The cost of living in SF completely matters to many that think they can live there and work in the greater Peninsula.

JamilD 10y ago

I've lived and worked in both Toronto and Silicon Valley, and it's not even close. SV has a way better quality of life than Toronto, even for the marginally higher rent. I paid $2600 for a two bedroom in San Jose -- split that with another person and it's only $1300. I'd be paying more for a studio in downtown Toronto anyway. And you can't just look at it from the perspective of money. I need to be in a city with things to do, preferably one that isn't practically uninhabitable 6 months of the year. You couldn't pay me to live in Kitchener-Waterloo.

johan_larson 10y ago
Practically uninhabitable is rather a strong claim. What sort of climate did you grow up in?
- JamilD 10y ago
  I'm exaggerating of course. Born and raised in Toronto. It's more an inconvenience, not wanting to spend much time outside in the winter. I think everybody generally goes out less in the winter months -- it's a problem you don't generally have even in marginally warmer climates south of the border (or in, say, Vancouver)
ouid 10y ago
The example apartment the author presented is in soma, which is in the very heart of downtown sf.
- JamilD 10y ago
  Which is an unfair comparison to make in the first place. Waterloo is an hour and a half away from downtown Toronto -- further than SJ from SF.

peterburkimsher 10y ago

Although I never worked in Toronto or Silicon Valley, I've had the same experience in Taiwan. Salaries in Kaohsiung are low, but the cost of living is much lower. Many young people move to Taipei to earn more, but end up saving less. People who stay usually aren't here for the money. That reduces inequality, and I feel subjectively safer. YMMV.

babesh 10y ago

Many people share an apartment and get free weekday meals from the company. The utility also seems high since heating and cooling aren't necessary for much of the year.

outworlder 10y ago

> In the Bay Area, the average one-bedroom apartment is $3,336 USD ($4,470 CAD) per month. Looking for a two-bedroom? The average price is $4,469 No it isn't. That is true in San Francisco, but there's more to the Bay Area than SF. Of course, by not living in SF, you'll have to commute there – if your job happens to be in SF; there's plenty of opportunity all over the Bay. Which is a pain regardless of transportation mode and should be factored in the quality of life comparison.

tostitos1979 10y ago

Why are tech salaries so bloody low in Canada? It is really disheartening that many union jobs that don't require the same level of skill end up getting far more compensation. I once had a a good CS student tell me he was getting a truck(more than a decade ago). when he told me the math I could not argue with him. Just tell me how someone can afford a million dollar house in Toronto on a local tech salary?

win_ini 10y ago

This may work for a young, single person. I'm a Toronto native but I work remotely for a Toronto-based company after moving to SF several years ago. After having a kid, SF Bay Area becomes pretty unbearable - I've lived in the mission, Redwood City and Burlingame over the years - education expenses, commuting times and rent all add up. Even with my wife being a successful tech sales person and my decent but non-exceptional salary. We moved to Lake Tahoe recently and it's been really nice - remote working is the best of both worlds. If you're a good engineer and can deal with working remote - it can be a great decision. Regular trips back to Toronto for work are a bonus - I get to see my family regularly. I'm sure Waterlooser has become cooler since I last visited 15 years ago, but I suspect it's still not really comparable to downtown Toronto for a young single person. Maybe better for a family. But that wasn't the salary/living situation being compared.