3 ms·

> Games are a visual, interactive, skill-based medium; people who are less interested in these things will be better off with other media and that's fine. I ha

by jordigh 10y ago

> Games are a visual, interactive, skill-based medium; people who are less interested in these things will be better off with other media and that's fine. I have a bit of a problem with this, because the most obvious group of people excluded from games is women (who mostly only play mobile games, which are interactive, visual, skill-based), and yet you seem to be implying that there is something "natural" about their aversion towards a visual, interactive, skill-based medium. I really want to fight against this argument of naturality, because it's been used countless times historically to exclude women from everything from politics to medicine and programming. Surely if most "real gamers", for want of a better term, are not women, then that's the fault of the games, not the women? I think that's what Brie Code is fundamentally arguing about.

lmm 10y ago
> who mostly only play mobile games, which are interactive, visual, skill-based Markedly less all of those, in my experience - and fundamentally less good as games. I definitely don't want to see "real" (your term) games become more like mobile games. And that seems to be what Brie Code is arguing for - removing the possibility of failure, turning down the skill aspects, putting less emphasis on the graphics. If she can bring a different cultural vision to a game that remains a "real game" in terms of being visual, interactive and skill-based then I'm all for that. > Surely if most "real gamers", for want of a better term, are not women, then that's the fault of the games, not the women? I think that's what Brie Code is fundamentally arguing about. I don't think an activity appealing more or less to one sex or another is a "fault" in either. Just as not every person likes the same things, not every demographic does either; why would we ever expect any different?
- jordigh 10y ago
  I can't shake the feeling that you're trying to say in the most adult and eloquent way possible that you just want to make sure that girls don't come into your sandbox and put frilly pink dresses on your toys, that they have their own (mobile) toys, away and separate from yours, and that's the way it should stay. :-)
  - lmm 10y ago
    Well I happen to like dresses. But I don't want all my toys taken away because girls don't like them. Fundamentally I care about video games in their current form. They've brought me a lot of joy during some of the worst parts of my life. Of course I'm bothered if someone thinks they're broken and wants to remove some of my favourite parts.
    - jordigh 10y ago
      Does it have to be like this? Can't there be room for more than one kind of game? I don't think Code is saying that we need to get rid of one kind of game to make room for another kind of game. I think she's just saying that she wishes that there were some interesting games with depth that she could share with people other than white males. She says how much she likes games and what kind of experiences she got from them, but then she can't share those experiences with many close friends in her life. Surely there's room for more than one kind of toy in the sandlot?
      - lmm 10y ago
        > I don't think Code is saying that we need to get rid of one kind of game to make room for another kind of game. The sense I got from some of her posts was that she did want to do that. And fundamentally there's always an opportunity cost - there are only so many creators and so many studios. She implies she wishes Child of Light had involved less swords and dragons, and had more accessible controls; I think all of those changes would have made it a worse game (for me but I think also for most other people). And I really enjoyed that game, and so I'd like to see more games like it made. If I thought she was actually going to succeed in making games that other people enjoyed then I could probably support that, even if I'd be sad to see her stop making games that I enjoy. The reason I find her so frustrating to read is that I think she's got it wrong. (And yes a certain amount of experimentation and willingness to make mistakes is a great thing, and possibly necessary to being a great artist. But I don't think what she's doing is that). I think the things she's doing differently aren't going to help other people enjoy her games more, they're just going to make people who do enjoy games enjoy hers less. And if she ends up making games that hardly anyone enjoys that will be a horrible waste of talent. If she never created anything else for the rest of her life I would still be grateful to her, so maybe it's unfair to expect anything more. But it's still frustrating to see.

by jordigh 10y ago

lmm 10y ago

> who mostly only play mobile games, which are interactive, visual, skill-based Markedly less all of those, in my experience - and fundamentally less good as games. I definitely don't want to see "real" (your term) games become more like mobile games. And that seems to be what Brie Code is arguing for - removing the possibility of failure, turning down the skill aspects, putting less emphasis on the graphics. If she can bring a different cultural vision to a game that remains a "real game" in terms of being visual, interactive and skill-based then I'm all for that. > Surely if most "real gamers", for want of a better term, are not women, then that's the fault of the games, not the women? I think that's what Brie Code is fundamentally arguing about. I don't think an activity appealing more or less to one sex or another is a "fault" in either. Just as not every person likes the same things, not every demographic does either; why would we ever expect any different?

jordigh 10y ago
I can't shake the feeling that you're trying to say in the most adult and eloquent way possible that you just want to make sure that girls don't come into your sandbox and put frilly pink dresses on your toys, that they have their own (mobile) toys, away and separate from yours, and that's the way it should stay. :-)
- lmm 10y ago
  Well I happen to like dresses. But I don't want all my toys taken away because girls don't like them. Fundamentally I care about video games in their current form. They've brought me a lot of joy during some of the worst parts of my life. Of course I'm bothered if someone thinks they're broken and wants to remove some of my favourite parts.
  - jordigh 10y ago
    Does it have to be like this? Can't there be room for more than one kind of game? I don't think Code is saying that we need to get rid of one kind of game to make room for another kind of game. I think she's just saying that she wishes that there were some interesting games with depth that she could share with people other than white males. She says how much she likes games and what kind of experiences she got from them, but then she can't share those experiences with many close friends in her life. Surely there's room for more than one kind of toy in the sandlot?
    - lmm 10y ago
      > I don't think Code is saying that we need to get rid of one kind of game to make room for another kind of game. The sense I got from some of her posts was that she did want to do that. And fundamentally there's always an opportunity cost - there are only so many creators and so many studios. She implies she wishes Child of Light had involved less swords and dragons, and had more accessible controls; I think all of those changes would have made it a worse game (for me but I think also for most other people). And I really enjoyed that game, and so I'd like to see more games like it made. If I thought she was actually going to succeed in making games that other people enjoyed then I could probably support that, even if I'd be sad to see her stop making games that I enjoy. The reason I find her so frustrating to read is that I think she's got it wrong. (And yes a certain amount of experimentation and willingness to make mistakes is a great thing, and possibly necessary to being a great artist. But I don't think what she's doing is that). I think the things she's doing differently aren't going to help other people enjoy her games more, they're just going to make people who do enjoy games enjoy hers less. And if she ends up making games that hardly anyone enjoys that will be a horrible waste of talent. If she never created anything else for the rest of her life I would still be grateful to her, so maybe it's unfair to expect anything more. But it's still frustrating to see.