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I still remember, 10 years or so ago, watching a debate between Hitchens, and a preeminent Islamic scholar. Hitchens was arguing that while strict religious be

by ep103 10y ago

I still remember, 10 years or so ago, watching a debate between Hitchens, and a preeminent Islamic scholar. Hitchens was arguing that while strict religious beliefs generally made it difficult to have a secular democracy, the special nature of Islam made it more or less outright impossible. The scholar argued that Hitchens was simply out of touch with reality, and regularly pointed to Turkey as proof that widespread Islamic faith was compatible with democracy. I don't have any knowledge of world religions, really. And I know countries like Albania are mostly muslim and seem to be doing okay. But that debate comes to mind every time I see a headline about Turkey these days.

phil21 10y ago
I'm not sure Albania is a great example. It has a unique history, and while most of the country identifies as muslim it's much more like calling the US a Christian country - sure it's true, but the vast majority are very non-practicing. As far as I'm aware this is rather unique for Muslim-majority countries, but I can't say I'm an expert on the subject. This unfortunately is a reversing trend that has concerned my Albanian friends. Due to economic hardship after the fall of communism extremist groups (e.g. saudi-funded mosques) were able to take hold, and some very hardcore wahhabi-style fundamental islamists were established using largely the youth preying on that poverty. This is mostly in the Northern part of the country, which is far more religious than the capital Tirana and the Southern part. My take as a westerner traveling there and talking extensively about it with multiple people is that they had no problem with extremism until external forces were allowed to take hold in the late 90's. And this is seen as a currently growing problem, that has a lot of moderate and non-religious Albanians concerned but not certainly not hopeless. Unfortunately it's still a very poor country - so things can turn on a dime. An ill-timed recession or other major economic hardship during a critical time of development may be all it takes to turn from the path of liberal democracy to something more like Turkey.
pjc50 10y ago
It's no more incompatible with democracy than any other religion. The problem lies with Islamism, the illiberal belief by some muslims that Islam should be superior to democracy, liberalism, individual rights and so on. (See Christian "Dominionism" for the same sub-belief within Christianity)
- dragonwriter 10y ago
  Dominionism isn't really equivalent to Islamism, it's more parallel to any one of the particular narrow schools of Islamism (and there are more schools of "Christianism" than just Dominionism.)
- ep103 10y ago
  well look, I'm absolutely not an expert. But the argument that Hitchens was making was that Islam, more than any other major religion, very explicitly dictates things of a governmental nature. Christianity has the 10 commandments, and so on, but Islam has much more social governance and legal apparatus woven into its ideology, and taken "as gospel". Its part of the reason why people get so scared of things like Shiara law and Shiara courts. But regardless, Hitchens' argument was that without resorting to exaggeration and fear mongering, because the ideology leans further in that governmental direction, it makes it harder to square with modern secular democracy than other religions would.
  - HeavenBanned 10y ago
    >It's part of the reason why people get so scared of things like Sharia law and Sharia courts. I fail to see how Islam having influence in the government and justice system is any different _at all_ from Christianity having massive influence in our government and our justice system (we put our hands on the BIBLE after all when we give testimony). Christianity permeates every aspect of our lives in the West. Just because it's less visible to us, doesn't mean it's any less ingrained in our culture. When we look at Islamic countries, these differences (from the outgroup) seem magnified and are thus big, bad and scary. But if anyone should be afraid of any country in the world it's the United States. Which is the largest exporter of terrorism in the world. Look at the Iraq war. 1 Million dead. But does anyone say, "Oh, dear God, Bush said Jesus told him to save Iraq; Christianity is so evil!" ? No. Nobody says that. Ever. Instead, people make posts about how backwards Islam is because women have to wear clothing over their bodies and make it seem like the end of the world when there are millions suffering by our hands due to colonial imperialism. Since WW2, the US has run roughshod over the M.E. and South America, killing countless number of peoples and cultures in the name of colonialism and white-expansionism. But those topics curiously never come up when discussing Islamic countries. No, in fact, they never come up because it just devolves into tribalistic finger pointing. Let's forget about toppling and ruining a country like Libya, displacing millions and killing more...because hey, Isis chopped off some heads! Oh - and on top of that - let's ban them from emigrating to the countries that bombed them in the first place - genius! This is grade A psychopathy. Hitchens is that peddling that brand of imperialist apologia that is thoroughly sickening. Hey Hitchens: answer for the crimes of the West before you start throwing stones.

by ep103 10y ago

phil21 10y ago

I'm not sure Albania is a great example. It has a unique history, and while most of the country identifies as muslim it's much more like calling the US a Christian country - sure it's true, but the vast majority are very non-practicing. As far as I'm aware this is rather unique for Muslim-majority countries, but I can't say I'm an expert on the subject. This unfortunately is a reversing trend that has concerned my Albanian friends. Due to economic hardship after the fall of communism extremist groups (e.g. saudi-funded mosques) were able to take hold, and some very hardcore wahhabi-style fundamental islamists were established using largely the youth preying on that poverty. This is mostly in the Northern part of the country, which is far more religious than the capital Tirana and the Southern part. My take as a westerner traveling there and talking extensively about it with multiple people is that they had no problem with extremism until external forces were allowed to take hold in the late 90's. And this is seen as a currently growing problem, that has a lot of moderate and non-religious Albanians concerned but not certainly not hopeless. Unfortunately it's still a very poor country - so things can turn on a dime. An ill-timed recession or other major economic hardship during a critical time of development may be all it takes to turn from the path of liberal democracy to something more like Turkey.

pjc50 10y ago

It's no more incompatible with democracy than any other religion. The problem lies with Islamism, the illiberal belief by some muslims that Islam should be superior to democracy, liberalism, individual rights and so on. (See Christian "Dominionism" for the same sub-belief within Christianity)

dragonwriter 10y ago
Dominionism isn't really equivalent to Islamism, it's more parallel to any one of the particular narrow schools of Islamism (and there are more schools of "Christianism" than just Dominionism.)
ep103 10y ago
well look, I'm absolutely not an expert. But the argument that Hitchens was making was that Islam, more than any other major religion, very explicitly dictates things of a governmental nature. Christianity has the 10 commandments, and so on, but Islam has much more social governance and legal apparatus woven into its ideology, and taken "as gospel". Its part of the reason why people get so scared of things like Shiara law and Shiara courts. But regardless, Hitchens' argument was that without resorting to exaggeration and fear mongering, because the ideology leans further in that governmental direction, it makes it harder to square with modern secular democracy than other religions would.
- HeavenBanned 10y ago
  >It's part of the reason why people get so scared of things like Sharia law and Sharia courts. I fail to see how Islam having influence in the government and justice system is any different _at all_ from Christianity having massive influence in our government and our justice system (we put our hands on the BIBLE after all when we give testimony). Christianity permeates every aspect of our lives in the West. Just because it's less visible to us, doesn't mean it's any less ingrained in our culture. When we look at Islamic countries, these differences (from the outgroup) seem magnified and are thus big, bad and scary. But if anyone should be afraid of any country in the world it's the United States. Which is the largest exporter of terrorism in the world. Look at the Iraq war. 1 Million dead. But does anyone say, "Oh, dear God, Bush said Jesus told him to save Iraq; Christianity is so evil!" ? No. Nobody says that. Ever. Instead, people make posts about how backwards Islam is because women have to wear clothing over their bodies and make it seem like the end of the world when there are millions suffering by our hands due to colonial imperialism. Since WW2, the US has run roughshod over the M.E. and South America, killing countless number of peoples and cultures in the name of colonialism and white-expansionism. But those topics curiously never come up when discussing Islamic countries. No, in fact, they never come up because it just devolves into tribalistic finger pointing. Let's forget about toppling and ruining a country like Libya, displacing millions and killing more...because hey, Isis chopped off some heads! Oh - and on top of that - let's ban them from emigrating to the countries that bombed them in the first place - genius! This is grade A psychopathy. Hitchens is that peddling that brand of imperialist apologia that is thoroughly sickening. Hey Hitchens: answer for the crimes of the West before you start throwing stones.