6 ms·

Justice Department charging Russian spies and criminal hackers in Yahoo intrusion

121 points by ziszis 10y ago

londons_explore 10y ago
Identifying individuals in an enemy's secret services sounds to me to be a tactic to say: > "You tried to hide from us, but not only do we know it was you, we also know exactly which operative did it. We have fully infiltrated your intel agency, you might as well give up now".
- lostboys67 10y ago
  One of the key tasks of your contra espionage Is to identify who your opposition is - having an avowed FSB officer with a public day job do naughty stuff is just amateur night - let alone getting caught. Oh and employing criminals as officers FFS Beria must be spinning in his grave at that incompetence
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- hugh4life 10y ago
  Um, read closely... one of those accused by the FBI was arrested in Russia for passing information to the CIA.
r721 10y ago
>The indicted FSB officers are Dmitry Dokuchaev and Igor Sushchin, his superior. Particularly galling to U.S. officials is that the men worked for the cyber investigative arm of the FSB — a rough equivalent of the FBI’s Cyber Division. That the agency that is supposed to investigate computer intrusions Russia is itself engaged in hacking is “pretty sad,” one official said. >Dokuchaev, whose hacker alias was “Forb,” was arrested in December in Moscow, according to the news agency Interfax, on charges of state treason for passing information to the CIA. He had reportedly agreed to work for the FSB to avoid prosecution for bank card fraud. The interesting bit here is that Dokuchaev is a part of Humpty Dumpty (Shaltai-Boltai) saga: https://krebsonsecurity.com/2017/01/a-shakeup-in-russias-top-cybercrime-unit/ https://krebsonsecurity.com/2017/01/a-shakeup-in-russias-top... https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2017-01-30/how-russian-hackers-became-a-kremlin-headache https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2017-01-30/how-russi... http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-38930627 http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-38930627 https://themoscowtimes.com/articles/tinker-tailor-hacker-spy-57013 https://themoscowtimes.com/articles/tinker-tailor-hacker-spy...
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
dmix 10y ago
> Particularly galling to U.S. officials is that the men worked for the cyber investigative arm of the FSB - a rough equivalent of the FBI's Cyber Division. That the agency that is supposed to investigate computer intrusions Russia is engaged in hacking is "pretty sad," one official said. This is why the FBI not engaging in their own grey-area shady offensive cyber techniques is so important, if they plan on making statements like these and expect to be taken seriously. Even if the FBI always find ways to get away with it legally, it still doesn't help their case when claiming moral high ground. There is nothing Russia loves better than to dismiss claims against them because the US does it too - and the Russian public eats this "US double standard" up every time. They just see what Russia does as more explicit. Without giving Russia this easy out I don't see how enforcement like this is going to be effective. They show no signs of slowing down. Unless some new sanctions are planned? Finding legal avenues instead of hiring shady Russian criminal hackers might seem like a big difference but the end results are hard to distinguish. Last week the FBI let a pedophile who ran a hugely popular darknet CP site go instead of revealing the full details of their own hacking: https://www.wired.com/2017/03/feds-rather-drop-child-porn-case-give-exploit/ https://www.wired.com/2017/03/feds-rather-drop-child-porn-ca... Consistency really does matter...
- pjc50 10y ago
  Indeed. Many years ago a treaty was made against the militarisation of space - which has largely been kept. There was an opportunity some time back to try to regulate the use of ""cyberwarfare"" against civilians, but it wasn't taken. The US was quite happy to use it against other countries. Unfortunately, like biological weapons, these techniques don't go back in the box very easily. We're entering an era where economic and political sabotage by hostile intelligence agencies - in both directions, and occasionally between "allies" or even in the same country - is becoming increasingly common.
  - zby 10y ago
    The problem of attribution is much worse with cyberweapons than with anything that has to be delivered physically. That makes any treaty impossible to enforce.
- 10y ago
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
itchyjunk 10y ago
Could someone with better forensic understanding help explain this a little better please? How does one not only trace back the hack to originating computer, but also figure out who was sitting behind that machine. Also, who hired that person to sit behind that machine and perform said hacks. Is this possible within the realms of digital forensics? Or does this imply alternate sources of intel? Just curious as to why these hackers are competent enough to hack multi-billion dollar industries but not competent enough to at least hide their employer if not themselves?
- salesguy222 10y ago
  In my opinion, no, digital forensics cannot prove these things 100%. The prosecutors and agencies involved can only string together evidence in an attempt to convince a non-technical jury (or tribunal) to see things that aren't there explicitly, but could be implied. For example, a machine with photos of me and some of my financial documents might be used to hack someone, and my MAC address and IP show up in the "hacking evidence". Depending on how motivated the prosecutors are to charge me personally, you will either see me in trouble, or you won't. In my opinion, if you aren't politically well connected, your ability to evade indictments and eventually convictions is non existent in the face of someone as powerful as the DOJ
  - itchyjunk 10y ago
    So tracing the the computer, hacking the webcam, getting the face, getting into the persons back account, following the money trail to FSB is more of a Hollywood hack and not reality than? I ask because I no longer have a feel for what is possible and what is fantasy. Especially how machine learning and what not comes into play if it does. [1] [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5ghK6yUJv4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5ghK6yUJv4
    - salesguy222 10y ago
      Sorry, I'm on mobile right now and I can't watch your link. Please do help me though: Are you saying that in the case of this Yahoo hack, this is the evidence that has been obtained? Or is this a general link about what authorities are able to do? Because if so, then yes, I personally would say this is enough to reach a guilty verdict. They deserve it if they were dumb enough to show their face and receive on the books payment from a shady authority. But too often, someone's machine is implicated with the kind of flakey technical evidence that is used to extort a confession or a plea bargain.
aluminussoma 10y ago
Hacking is "sexy" and sensational, but if you really wanted a corporation's data, wouldn't it be easier to just get your agent hired as an Ops person at your target?
- JoeAltmaier 10y ago
  ...or just reward an existing ops person with something like the real value of the information (millions?). Ops people are notoriously underpaid and overworked.
  - seppin 10y ago
    why not both? (they do both)
- M_Grey 10y ago
  Easier? Maybe not. An agent can betray you, even if only to say, "I'm an agent!" Humans require handlers and are unpredictable in their actions and circumstances, and of course they can always suddenly flee or die. You have to deal with people, contact people, leave traces with people. A failure to hack is almost always going to be just... a failure to hack. A failure to turn an asset or a turned asset... yikes.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
rodionos 10y ago
The traditional channels between the U.S. and Russia for pushing back against each other are evidently not working. What's remaining is doing the same thing, over and over again expecting different results.
- dragonwriter 10y ago
  This isn't an alternative venue for the US pushing back against Russia. Russia and the US are working on the same side here; one of these FSB officers was recently arrested in Russia for treason, and now the US government is piling on charges.
  - _nox_ 10y ago
    Treason, most likely, being him talking to the FBI about the charges. I don't expect Russian media to spin it along the way you suggest. Even if you entertain the possibility that the two acted on their own, you can't admit it to the public. Admitting that two of your own officer ran roughshod over you is too embarrassing. In the prosecution, the authorities will probably rely on the American angle (they tried to sell our secrets to the FBI, but we caught them).
gcb0 10y ago
yet moments before we got this https://yro.slashdot.org/story/17/03/15/0521225/hacking-victim-cant-sue-foreign-government-for-hacking-him-on-us-soil-says-court https://yro.slashdot.org/story/17/03/15/0521225/hacking-vict... > a court of appeals in Washington D.C. ruled that an American citizen can't sue the Ethiopian government for hacking into his computer and monitoring him with spyware. "The decision on Tuesday is a blow to anti-surveillance and digital rights activists who were hoping to establish an important precedent in a widely documented case of illegitimate government-sponsored hacking."
- anigbrowl 10y ago
  There's a general principle that individuals can't sue governments because otherwise the conduct of foreign relations by governments becomes impossible. Also, other countries are disinclined to pay attention to verdicts against themselves in US courts, and it would be embarrassing for us to have people win their cases and then have no way of enforcing the judgement. That could lead to courts ordering the seizure of foreign assets to pay compensation, which would undermine the Constitutional role of the Executive branch to conduct foreign relations. Thus, courts generally decline to hear those cases. Governments are held to have 'sovereign immunity' and indeed most countries offer no way to sue a foreign government in their own courts.
  - igivanov 10y ago
    Perhaps in theory... http://www.jpost.com/Middle-East/Iran-News/Terror-victims-kin-have-no-right-to-sue-Iran-in-US-courts-Zarif-says-452664 http://www.jpost.com/Middle-East/Iran-News/Terror-victims-ki... http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-10-01/sept-11-widow-first-american-sue-saudi-arabia-terrorism-her-full-lawsuit http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-10-01/sept-11-widow-first... http://www.historycommons.org/context.jsp?item=complete_timeline_of_the_2003_invasion_of_iraq_2015#complete_timeline_of_the_2003_invasion_of_iraq_2015 http://www.historycommons.org/context.jsp?item=complete_time...
_nox_ 10y ago
One of the FSB officers in this story, Dmitry Dokuchaev, was arrested a few weeks ago by the Russian authorities. He was arrested along with his FSB supervisor Sergey Mikhailov. Authorities cited treason, but the most interesting bit of the story was that the two were part of the Shaltai-Boltai hacks. The group was notorious for hacking government officials, and leaking e-mails and sensitive reports. Their highest-profile target was Dmitry Medvedev. So, yes, dear american attorney, it's all quite sad. These counter-intelligence officers not only hacked yahoo, but their own government as well. My guess is that they were grunts serving one of the power blocks within Kremlin. Hence the leaks targeting certain Kremlin officials, and not others. That's why they were safe for so long. Another funny bit you can read between the lines, is that when the Americans tracked them down, they probably tried to recruit them as their own spies within the FSB. Or at least ferret out as much info as they could, probably in exchange for a sweeter deal back in the US. And that's when the Russian counter-intelligence decided to pull the plug. Hence, you see them being arrested primarily for "treason and colluding with the FBI", rather than the Shaltai-Boltai leaks.
tsomctl 10y ago
Fortunately for them, we don't have an extradition treaty with Russia. On a related note, Semion Mogilevich, head of the Russian mafia, and one of the FBI's most wanted, lives freely in Moscow.
- finid 10y ago
  Where else is he supposed to live freely? How many mafia bosses are living freely in a US city near you?
finid 10y ago
The interesting thing about this is that one of the indicted spies was arrested by the FSB and charged with treason for spying for the CIA. That was just 2 months ago. Twisted world.
ENOTTY 10y ago
Here's the full text of the indictment https://www.justice.gov/opa/press-release/file/948201/download https://www.justice.gov/opa/press-release/file/948201/downlo... There are some rather interesting nuggets of information in it.
derptron 10y ago
So the attacks happened in 2014. Yahoo waited 2 years to divulge that information, and now suddenly we have charges filed? Seems fishy.

121 points by ziszis 10y ago

Identifying individuals in an enemy's secret services sounds to me to be a tactic to say: > "You tried to hide from us, but not only do we know it was you, we also know exactly which operative did it. We have fully infiltrated your intel agency, you might as well give up now".

lostboys67 10y ago
One of the key tasks of your contra espionage Is to identify who your opposition is - having an avowed FSB officer with a public day job do naughty stuff is just amateur night - let alone getting caught. Oh and employing criminals as officers FFS Beria must be spinning in his grave at that incompetence
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
hugh4life 10y ago
Um, read closely... one of those accused by the FBI was arrested in Russia for passing information to the CIA.

r721 10y ago

>The indicted FSB officers are Dmitry Dokuchaev and Igor Sushchin, his superior. Particularly galling to U.S. officials is that the men worked for the cyber investigative arm of the FSB — a rough equivalent of the FBI’s Cyber Division. That the agency that is supposed to investigate computer intrusions Russia is itself engaged in hacking is “pretty sad,” one official said. >Dokuchaev, whose hacker alias was “Forb,” was arrested in December in Moscow, according to the news agency Interfax, on charges of state treason for passing information to the CIA. He had reportedly agreed to work for the FSB to avoid prosecution for bank card fraud. The interesting bit here is that Dokuchaev is a part of Humpty Dumpty (Shaltai-Boltai) saga: https://krebsonsecurity.com/2017/01/a-shakeup-in-russias-top-cybercrime-unit/ https://krebsonsecurity.com/2017/01/a-shakeup-in-russias-top... https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2017-01-30/how-russian-hackers-became-a-kremlin-headache https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2017-01-30/how-russi... http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-38930627 http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-38930627 https://themoscowtimes.com/articles/tinker-tailor-hacker-spy-57013 https://themoscowtimes.com/articles/tinker-tailor-hacker-spy...

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

dmix 10y ago

> Particularly galling to U.S. officials is that the men worked for the cyber investigative arm of the FSB - a rough equivalent of the FBI's Cyber Division. That the agency that is supposed to investigate computer intrusions Russia is engaged in hacking is "pretty sad," one official said. This is why the FBI not engaging in their own grey-area shady offensive cyber techniques is so important, if they plan on making statements like these and expect to be taken seriously. Even if the FBI always find ways to get away with it legally, it still doesn't help their case when claiming moral high ground. There is nothing Russia loves better than to dismiss claims against them because the US does it too - and the Russian public eats this "US double standard" up every time. They just see what Russia does as more explicit. Without giving Russia this easy out I don't see how enforcement like this is going to be effective. They show no signs of slowing down. Unless some new sanctions are planned? Finding legal avenues instead of hiring shady Russian criminal hackers might seem like a big difference but the end results are hard to distinguish. Last week the FBI let a pedophile who ran a hugely popular darknet CP site go instead of revealing the full details of their own hacking: https://www.wired.com/2017/03/feds-rather-drop-child-porn-case-give-exploit/ https://www.wired.com/2017/03/feds-rather-drop-child-porn-ca... Consistency really does matter...

pjc50 10y ago
Indeed. Many years ago a treaty was made against the militarisation of space - which has largely been kept. There was an opportunity some time back to try to regulate the use of ""cyberwarfare"" against civilians, but it wasn't taken. The US was quite happy to use it against other countries. Unfortunately, like biological weapons, these techniques don't go back in the box very easily. We're entering an era where economic and political sabotage by hostile intelligence agencies - in both directions, and occasionally between "allies" or even in the same country - is becoming increasingly common.
- zby 10y ago
  The problem of attribution is much worse with cyberweapons than with anything that has to be delivered physically. That makes any treaty impossible to enforce.
10y ago

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

itchyjunk 10y ago

Could someone with better forensic understanding help explain this a little better please? How does one not only trace back the hack to originating computer, but also figure out who was sitting behind that machine. Also, who hired that person to sit behind that machine and perform said hacks. Is this possible within the realms of digital forensics? Or does this imply alternate sources of intel? Just curious as to why these hackers are competent enough to hack multi-billion dollar industries but not competent enough to at least hide their employer if not themselves?

salesguy222 10y ago
In my opinion, no, digital forensics cannot prove these things 100%. The prosecutors and agencies involved can only string together evidence in an attempt to convince a non-technical jury (or tribunal) to see things that aren't there explicitly, but could be implied. For example, a machine with photos of me and some of my financial documents might be used to hack someone, and my MAC address and IP show up in the "hacking evidence". Depending on how motivated the prosecutors are to charge me personally, you will either see me in trouble, or you won't. In my opinion, if you aren't politically well connected, your ability to evade indictments and eventually convictions is non existent in the face of someone as powerful as the DOJ
- itchyjunk 10y ago
  So tracing the the computer, hacking the webcam, getting the face, getting into the persons back account, following the money trail to FSB is more of a Hollywood hack and not reality than? I ask because I no longer have a feel for what is possible and what is fantasy. Especially how machine learning and what not comes into play if it does. [1] [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5ghK6yUJv4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5ghK6yUJv4
  - salesguy222 10y ago
    Sorry, I'm on mobile right now and I can't watch your link. Please do help me though: Are you saying that in the case of this Yahoo hack, this is the evidence that has been obtained? Or is this a general link about what authorities are able to do? Because if so, then yes, I personally would say this is enough to reach a guilty verdict. They deserve it if they were dumb enough to show their face and receive on the books payment from a shady authority. But too often, someone's machine is implicated with the kind of flakey technical evidence that is used to extort a confession or a plea bargain.

aluminussoma 10y ago

Hacking is "sexy" and sensational, but if you really wanted a corporation's data, wouldn't it be easier to just get your agent hired as an Ops person at your target?

JoeAltmaier 10y ago
...or just reward an existing ops person with something like the real value of the information (millions?). Ops people are notoriously underpaid and overworked.
- seppin 10y ago
  why not both? (they do both)
M_Grey 10y ago
Easier? Maybe not. An agent can betray you, even if only to say, "I'm an agent!" Humans require handlers and are unpredictable in their actions and circumstances, and of course they can always suddenly flee or die. You have to deal with people, contact people, leave traces with people. A failure to hack is almost always going to be just... a failure to hack. A failure to turn an asset or a turned asset... yikes.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]

rodionos 10y ago

The traditional channels between the U.S. and Russia for pushing back against each other are evidently not working. What's remaining is doing the same thing, over and over again expecting different results.

dragonwriter 10y ago
This isn't an alternative venue for the US pushing back against Russia. Russia and the US are working on the same side here; one of these FSB officers was recently arrested in Russia for treason, and now the US government is piling on charges.
- _nox_ 10y ago
  Treason, most likely, being him talking to the FBI about the charges. I don't expect Russian media to spin it along the way you suggest. Even if you entertain the possibility that the two acted on their own, you can't admit it to the public. Admitting that two of your own officer ran roughshod over you is too embarrassing. In the prosecution, the authorities will probably rely on the American angle (they tried to sell our secrets to the FBI, but we caught them).

gcb0 10y ago

yet moments before we got this https://yro.slashdot.org/story/17/03/15/0521225/hacking-victim-cant-sue-foreign-government-for-hacking-him-on-us-soil-says-court https://yro.slashdot.org/story/17/03/15/0521225/hacking-vict... > a court of appeals in Washington D.C. ruled that an American citizen can't sue the Ethiopian government for hacking into his computer and monitoring him with spyware. "The decision on Tuesday is a blow to anti-surveillance and digital rights activists who were hoping to establish an important precedent in a widely documented case of illegitimate government-sponsored hacking."

anigbrowl 10y ago
There's a general principle that individuals can't sue governments because otherwise the conduct of foreign relations by governments becomes impossible. Also, other countries are disinclined to pay attention to verdicts against themselves in US courts, and it would be embarrassing for us to have people win their cases and then have no way of enforcing the judgement. That could lead to courts ordering the seizure of foreign assets to pay compensation, which would undermine the Constitutional role of the Executive branch to conduct foreign relations. Thus, courts generally decline to hear those cases. Governments are held to have 'sovereign immunity' and indeed most countries offer no way to sue a foreign government in their own courts.
- igivanov 10y ago
  Perhaps in theory... http://www.jpost.com/Middle-East/Iran-News/Terror-victims-kin-have-no-right-to-sue-Iran-in-US-courts-Zarif-says-452664 http://www.jpost.com/Middle-East/Iran-News/Terror-victims-ki... http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-10-01/sept-11-widow-first-american-sue-saudi-arabia-terrorism-her-full-lawsuit http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-10-01/sept-11-widow-first... http://www.historycommons.org/context.jsp?item=complete_timeline_of_the_2003_invasion_of_iraq_2015#complete_timeline_of_the_2003_invasion_of_iraq_2015 http://www.historycommons.org/context.jsp?item=complete_time...

_nox_ 10y ago

One of the FSB officers in this story, Dmitry Dokuchaev, was arrested a few weeks ago by the Russian authorities. He was arrested along with his FSB supervisor Sergey Mikhailov. Authorities cited treason, but the most interesting bit of the story was that the two were part of the Shaltai-Boltai hacks. The group was notorious for hacking government officials, and leaking e-mails and sensitive reports. Their highest-profile target was Dmitry Medvedev. So, yes, dear american attorney, it's all quite sad. These counter-intelligence officers not only hacked yahoo, but their own government as well. My guess is that they were grunts serving one of the power blocks within Kremlin. Hence the leaks targeting certain Kremlin officials, and not others. That's why they were safe for so long. Another funny bit you can read between the lines, is that when the Americans tracked them down, they probably tried to recruit them as their own spies within the FSB. Or at least ferret out as much info as they could, probably in exchange for a sweeter deal back in the US. And that's when the Russian counter-intelligence decided to pull the plug. Hence, you see them being arrested primarily for "treason and colluding with the FBI", rather than the Shaltai-Boltai leaks.

tsomctl 10y ago

Fortunately for them, we don't have an extradition treaty with Russia. On a related note, Semion Mogilevich, head of the Russian mafia, and one of the FBI's most wanted, lives freely in Moscow.

finid 10y ago
Where else is he supposed to live freely? How many mafia bosses are living freely in a US city near you?

finid 10y ago

The interesting thing about this is that one of the indicted spies was arrested by the FSB and charged with treason for spying for the CIA. That was just 2 months ago. Twisted world.

ENOTTY 10y ago

Here's the full text of the indictment https://www.justice.gov/opa/press-release/file/948201/download https://www.justice.gov/opa/press-release/file/948201/downlo... There are some rather interesting nuggets of information in it.

derptron 10y ago

So the attacks happened in 2014. Yahoo waited 2 years to divulge that information, and now suddenly we have charges filed? Seems fishy.