4 ms·

> though it's locked in the horrible dark dungeon of UbiSoft DRM. Damn, I was hoping to play this game some day, because I really like reading Brie Code's essa

by jordigh 10y ago

> though it's locked in the horrible dark dungeon of UbiSoft DRM. Damn, I was hoping to play this game some day, because I really like reading Brie Code's essays. I hope her new indie studio manages to sell without DRM.

lmm 10y ago
Heh, I disliked the focus of her popular essays, but I liked the game a lot (for reasons that I think were often the opposite of what she argued for). It was just a pain to have to wait a minute for uPlay to sort itself out whenever I wanted to play it, particularly when it's such a nice and sweet game that I played to get away from everything.
- jordigh 10y ago
  I might regret asking, but... what did you dislike about her essays? I'm all for playing different kinds of video games made by and for different kinds of people. That's what her focus seems to be. What did you get out of it?
  - lmm 10y ago
    I disliked the attacks on games that work well as games and are enjoyed by many players, or on attention to graphics (when for me the graphics were one of the big things that made Child of Light so fun to play). Games are a visual, interactive, skill-based medium; people who are less interested in these things will be better off with other media and that's fine. By all means explore new possibilities for the medium, putting the focus in different places. But don't throw away what makes games great, especially to please an audience that was never interested in games in the first place. Games are a wonderful thing already, and dismissing the current state of gaming as "boring" or "murder simulators" is as mean-spirited as it is trite. (And the claim that games that appeal to non-gamers could be being made if only it weren't for diversity issues in the industry is not one to throw around lightly). I found her whole focus on diversity inconsistent and unclear - at times she talks about the importance of having distinct perspectives on games and gaming, yet at other times she talks about having diverse teams develop games, which run rather contrary to each other. What made Child of Light great was that it mines this rich cultural seam of European fairy tales, playing with the (ugh) tropes of the genre. That kind of backdrop is even more important for a game than for a book or film, because culture is harder to convey in a game; the player has a lot of freedom so there's less chance to show them important details, instead you need to be able to pull out motifs that you can rely on the player to understand. The king, the sword, the jesters, the knightly mouse, the sisters, the golem - the game works because all these things are dripping in cultural connotations and every element of the game - the writing, the music, the gameplay - is embedded in that cultural context. It's the kind of work that only a culturally homogenous team (not necessarily by birth culture perhaps, but people with years of living in the same shared culture) could produce. I'd be very happy to see games from other perspectives - but I think that perspective needs to be shared across the team. There are times where her essays read like she wants to insist on within-team diversity, which I think would destroy the ability to make a game like Child of Light - particularly given that the culture in question is an inherently European one with traditional concepts of nobility, gender roles and the like (which the game is acknowledging and buying into even as it plays around with some of them).
    - jordigh 10y ago
      > Games are a visual, interactive, skill-based medium; people who are less interested in these things will be better off with other media and that's fine. I have a bit of a problem with this, because the most obvious group of people excluded from games is women (who mostly only play mobile games, which are interactive, visual, skill-based), and yet you seem to be implying that there is something "natural" about their aversion towards a visual, interactive, skill-based medium. I really want to fight against this argument of naturality, because it's been used countless times historically to exclude women from everything from politics to medicine and programming. Surely if most "real gamers", for want of a better term, are not women, then that's the fault of the games, not the women? I think that's what Brie Code is fundamentally arguing about.
      - lmm 10y ago
        > who mostly only play mobile games, which are interactive, visual, skill-based Markedly less all of those, in my experience - and fundamentally less good as games. I definitely don't want to see "real" (your term) games become more like mobile games. And that seems to be what Brie Code is arguing for - removing the possibility of failure, turning down the skill aspects, putting less emphasis on the graphics. If she can bring a different cultural vision to a game that remains a "real game" in terms of being visual, interactive and skill-based then I'm all for that. > Surely if most "real gamers", for want of a better term, are not women, then that's the fault of the games, not the women? I think that's what Brie Code is fundamentally arguing about. I don't think an activity appealing more or less to one sex or another is a "fault" in either. Just as not every person likes the same things, not every demographic does either; why would we ever expect any different?
        jordigh 10y ago
        I can't shake the feeling that you're trying to say in the most adult and eloquent way possible that you just want to make sure that girls don't come into your sandbox and put frilly pink dresses on your toys, that they have their own (mobile) toys, away and separate from yours, and that's the way it should stay. :-)

by jordigh 10y ago

lmm 10y ago

Heh, I disliked the focus of her popular essays, but I liked the game a lot (for reasons that I think were often the opposite of what she argued for). It was just a pain to have to wait a minute for uPlay to sort itself out whenever I wanted to play it, particularly when it's such a nice and sweet game that I played to get away from everything.

jordigh 10y ago
I might regret asking, but... what did you dislike about her essays? I'm all for playing different kinds of video games made by and for different kinds of people. That's what her focus seems to be. What did you get out of it?
- lmm 10y ago
  I disliked the attacks on games that work well as games and are enjoyed by many players, or on attention to graphics (when for me the graphics were one of the big things that made Child of Light so fun to play). Games are a visual, interactive, skill-based medium; people who are less interested in these things will be better off with other media and that's fine. By all means explore new possibilities for the medium, putting the focus in different places. But don't throw away what makes games great, especially to please an audience that was never interested in games in the first place. Games are a wonderful thing already, and dismissing the current state of gaming as "boring" or "murder simulators" is as mean-spirited as it is trite. (And the claim that games that appeal to non-gamers could be being made if only it weren't for diversity issues in the industry is not one to throw around lightly). I found her whole focus on diversity inconsistent and unclear - at times she talks about the importance of having distinct perspectives on games and gaming, yet at other times she talks about having diverse teams develop games, which run rather contrary to each other. What made Child of Light great was that it mines this rich cultural seam of European fairy tales, playing with the (ugh) tropes of the genre. That kind of backdrop is even more important for a game than for a book or film, because culture is harder to convey in a game; the player has a lot of freedom so there's less chance to show them important details, instead you need to be able to pull out motifs that you can rely on the player to understand. The king, the sword, the jesters, the knightly mouse, the sisters, the golem - the game works because all these things are dripping in cultural connotations and every element of the game - the writing, the music, the gameplay - is embedded in that cultural context. It's the kind of work that only a culturally homogenous team (not necessarily by birth culture perhaps, but people with years of living in the same shared culture) could produce. I'd be very happy to see games from other perspectives - but I think that perspective needs to be shared across the team. There are times where her essays read like she wants to insist on within-team diversity, which I think would destroy the ability to make a game like Child of Light - particularly given that the culture in question is an inherently European one with traditional concepts of nobility, gender roles and the like (which the game is acknowledging and buying into even as it plays around with some of them).
  - jordigh 10y ago
    > Games are a visual, interactive, skill-based medium; people who are less interested in these things will be better off with other media and that's fine. I have a bit of a problem with this, because the most obvious group of people excluded from games is women (who mostly only play mobile games, which are interactive, visual, skill-based), and yet you seem to be implying that there is something "natural" about their aversion towards a visual, interactive, skill-based medium. I really want to fight against this argument of naturality, because it's been used countless times historically to exclude women from everything from politics to medicine and programming. Surely if most "real gamers", for want of a better term, are not women, then that's the fault of the games, not the women? I think that's what Brie Code is fundamentally arguing about.
    - lmm 10y ago
      > who mostly only play mobile games, which are interactive, visual, skill-based Markedly less all of those, in my experience - and fundamentally less good as games. I definitely don't want to see "real" (your term) games become more like mobile games. And that seems to be what Brie Code is arguing for - removing the possibility of failure, turning down the skill aspects, putting less emphasis on the graphics. If she can bring a different cultural vision to a game that remains a "real game" in terms of being visual, interactive and skill-based then I'm all for that. > Surely if most "real gamers", for want of a better term, are not women, then that's the fault of the games, not the women? I think that's what Brie Code is fundamentally arguing about. I don't think an activity appealing more or less to one sex or another is a "fault" in either. Just as not every person likes the same things, not every demographic does either; why would we ever expect any different?
      - jordigh 10y ago
        I can't shake the feeling that you're trying to say in the most adult and eloquent way possible that you just want to make sure that girls don't come into your sandbox and put frilly pink dresses on your toys, that they have their own (mobile) toys, away and separate from yours, and that's the way it should stay. :-)