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I don't think most of us want to be "Computer Scientists" as the colleges define it. I think most of us want some kind of Software Engineering degree which is

I don't think most of us want to be "Computer Scientists" as the colleges define it. I think most of us want some kind of Software Engineering degree which is not what a Computer Science degree is. Most colleges want to teach "Computer Science" as they see it which is basically just "Math with Data Structures and other BS thrown in to make people hirable". I think at this point what needs to happen is colleges need to stop branding "Computer Science" as something that will get you a job and stick to what they want to do, the hard algorithms and theory stuff and someone else needs to offer a "Software Engineering" course that teaches all the stuff that colleges threw in to make people hireable. If that happened we'd all be more happy. The only way to make this happen is to stop posting job profiles asking for "Computer Science" unless you acctually need a Computer Scientist (theory-side). You should instead say "Software Engineer or similar" in the posting. Colleges will see this, parents will see this, students will see this and after that all happens we'll all be able to make better choices. Students will find colleges wanting to teach what they are interested, the stuanch theory CS professors will be able to teach at colleges, and employers will actually find programmers who can program after they've graduated from college. Maybe we'd be able to kill off a few major zero days, save a chunk of change in the global economy, or make something cool by making this small change. I also don't think Software Engineering is as much of a "science" as it is a "trade". Programmers program, painters paint, carpenters carpet.... I mean build. We all have a skilled knowladge and tallent and know how to use that to shape the world around us. Most of the information that must be taught is experiance based and can be given in a trade-school enviroment. I think that's also another way forward.

shultays 10y ago
There are some 'buillshit' classes in C.S. which are highly theoretical which and has nearly zero real world applications for an average programmer but data structures is not one of them. The schools don't teach data structure just so a graduate can answer related interview questions. I also don't think Software Engineering is as much of a "science" as it is a "trade" ... Most of the information that must be taught is experiance based and can be given in a trade-school enviroment I disagree. Software Engineering is not just about experience. It is not something that a master can pass to his students. It is also about constantly improving yourself and learning new things.
- gravypod 10y ago
  > The schools don't teach data structure just so a graduate can answer related interview questions. At my university, "Data Strctures" is one course where you write no code, another corse that is just about discrete math, and then at your senior year you actually do a Data Structures class. I have no problem with Data Structures and I of course think they are important. I have a problem with what colleges think Data Structures are, or how they should be taught.
  - jhall1468 10y ago
    Why would writing code matter? Data structure aren't "code", they are a way of organizing data. Sure, in our jobs we use them practically, but the purpose of college is to explain them and (the really important part) when to use them. There is a core difference between implementation and theory.
    - gravypod 10y ago
      What is implementation if not a perfect description of the theory?
- Haydos585x2 10y ago
  A master probably could pass it onto their students though. Imagine if we had apprenticeships for software dev the same way we do for other trades. A first year would come in and see how things are done, work on some minor things. Later on when they have skills they can handle more projects themselves and eventually take on their own apprentices. Most of the programming people do is the same old crap and anything new can be learned by self-education there are science components but overall I think we're far closer to trades than a lot of people want to admit.

shultays 10y ago

There are some 'buillshit' classes in C.S. which are highly theoretical which and has nearly zero real world applications for an average programmer but data structures is not one of them. The schools don't teach data structure just so a graduate can answer related interview questions. I also don't think Software Engineering is as much of a "science" as it is a "trade" ... Most of the information that must be taught is experiance based and can be given in a trade-school enviroment I disagree. Software Engineering is not just about experience. It is not something that a master can pass to his students. It is also about constantly improving yourself and learning new things.

gravypod 10y ago
> The schools don't teach data structure just so a graduate can answer related interview questions. At my university, "Data Strctures" is one course where you write no code, another corse that is just about discrete math, and then at your senior year you actually do a Data Structures class. I have no problem with Data Structures and I of course think they are important. I have a problem with what colleges think Data Structures are, or how they should be taught.
- jhall1468 10y ago
  Why would writing code matter? Data structure aren't "code", they are a way of organizing data. Sure, in our jobs we use them practically, but the purpose of college is to explain them and (the really important part) when to use them. There is a core difference between implementation and theory.
  - gravypod 10y ago
    What is implementation if not a perfect description of the theory?
Haydos585x2 10y ago
A master probably could pass it onto their students though. Imagine if we had apprenticeships for software dev the same way we do for other trades. A first year would come in and see how things are done, work on some minor things. Later on when they have skills they can handle more projects themselves and eventually take on their own apprentices. Most of the programming people do is the same old crap and anything new can be learned by self-education there are science components but overall I think we're far closer to trades than a lot of people want to admit.