4 ms·

I'm on my phone, but tech is generally worse(0) than doctors(1) and lawyers(2), two professions that made huge improvements in the last decade. Note that's just

by eli 10y ago

I'm on my phone, but tech is generally worse(0) than doctors(1) and lawyers(2), two professions that made huge improvements in the last decade. Note that's just doctors and lawyers, not the whole legal and medical field, which would likely be an even more unfavorable comparison. How bad does tech have to be for you to acknowledge a problem? Isn't "worse the average female participation" bad enough? 0) https://www.dol.gov/wb/stats/Computer_information_technology_2014.htm https://www.dol.gov/wb/stats/Computer_information_technology... 1) http://kff.org/other/state-indicator/physicians-by-gender/?dataView=1&currentTimeframe=0&selectedRows=%7B"wrapups":%7B"united-states":%7B%7D%7D%7D&sortModel=%7B"colId":"Location","sort":"asc"%7D http://kff.org/other/state-indicator/physicians-by-gender/?d... 2) https://bol.bna.com/the-legal-professions-gender-imbalance-in-a-chart/ https://bol.bna.com/the-legal-professions-gender-imbalance-i...

scythe 10y ago
>How bad does tech have to be for you to acknowledge a problem? Who said I didn't acknowledge there was a problem? The descriptor at issue is awful. The usual conditions for use of the word "awful" require more than just there being a problem. The alternate hypothesis that I mentioned, that sexism in tech comes from the country as a whole, is not a denial of there being a problem. I don't see how that could be inferred. >tech is generally worse(0) than doctors(1) and lawyers(2) Lawyers and doctors are generally highly educated, whereas the majority of the technical workforce has a Master's in some kind of engineering or even less. The educational institutions provide a means to change culture which generally means that cultural changes propagate faster here than in most of the country. As such it's a bit of a biased comparison. This is why, as you mention, there have been "huge improvements" in such a short time span as the last decade.
- eli 10y ago
  I don't follow your point. Is the problem not sufficiently awful to bother trying to solve it? Or is it that tech is off the hook because it's the schools or "the country as a whole" (whatever that means) which is more to blame? The gender imbalance is particularly acute in silicon valley and I think SV has an obligation to do something about it. It isn't about whose fault it is.
  - scythe 10y ago
    I am arguing: - causation matters - SV is not a notable causal locus - Generally SV companies should be expected to comply with federal laws/norms on inclusiveness but "special action" is unnecessary and mostly self-congratulatory (oh wow this tech stuff is so awesome everyone should do it) - there is a plausible if isolated and somewhat orthogonal correlation between companies which make money by "breaking rules" and companies where people break rules as relates to acceptable social conduct. In the specific case of companies (AirBnB, Uber) who are essentially being paid by venture capitalists to ignore regulations and hide the money trail it makes sense that such norms may enforce loyalty. It's sort of like David Cameron's porcine bride. However only a small (but highly notorious) fraction of SV companies depend on this. On the third point I want to note that saying "tech jobs are awesome, why aren't more women in them" is a sneaky way of asserting "tech jobs are awesome" i.e. for everyone. In reality they're okay but it's not like people here are actually happier or anything.
SticksAndBreaks 10y ago
The average IT-Enthusiast on youtube,streaming a project is usually male. The participation there is voluntarily, no discrimination by google. You cant carry the dog to hunt.
- eli 10y ago
  I implore you to seek out a woman who has ever posted a video about IT (or, worse, video games) and ask them how that experience went and if they're likely to repeat it. This is a big problem even if there isn't active discrimination by Google (or anyone else).
  - SticksAndBreaks 10y ago
    Just put into the faces video some random looping guy GIF. And you can kick the usual horny teenager. You can not have a video at all, and not use a microphone- just chatting. The internet is asexual by nature which is great. Your argument is invalid, there is no problem there, except for one group demanding social controll over all others.
    - adrienne 10y ago
      So - women should only be on the internet if they're willing to hide their entire identity and never use their voice? And that's your idea of a solution?

by eli 10y ago

scythe 10y ago

>How bad does tech have to be for you to acknowledge a problem? Who said I didn't acknowledge there was a problem? The descriptor at issue is awful. The usual conditions for use of the word "awful" require more than just there being a problem. The alternate hypothesis that I mentioned, that sexism in tech comes from the country as a whole, is not a denial of there being a problem. I don't see how that could be inferred. >tech is generally worse(0) than doctors(1) and lawyers(2) Lawyers and doctors are generally highly educated, whereas the majority of the technical workforce has a Master's in some kind of engineering or even less. The educational institutions provide a means to change culture which generally means that cultural changes propagate faster here than in most of the country. As such it's a bit of a biased comparison. This is why, as you mention, there have been "huge improvements" in such a short time span as the last decade.

eli 10y ago
I don't follow your point. Is the problem not sufficiently awful to bother trying to solve it? Or is it that tech is off the hook because it's the schools or "the country as a whole" (whatever that means) which is more to blame? The gender imbalance is particularly acute in silicon valley and I think SV has an obligation to do something about it. It isn't about whose fault it is.
- scythe 10y ago
  I am arguing: - causation matters - SV is not a notable causal locus - Generally SV companies should be expected to comply with federal laws/norms on inclusiveness but "special action" is unnecessary and mostly self-congratulatory (oh wow this tech stuff is so awesome everyone should do it) - there is a plausible if isolated and somewhat orthogonal correlation between companies which make money by "breaking rules" and companies where people break rules as relates to acceptable social conduct. In the specific case of companies (AirBnB, Uber) who are essentially being paid by venture capitalists to ignore regulations and hide the money trail it makes sense that such norms may enforce loyalty. It's sort of like David Cameron's porcine bride. However only a small (but highly notorious) fraction of SV companies depend on this. On the third point I want to note that saying "tech jobs are awesome, why aren't more women in them" is a sneaky way of asserting "tech jobs are awesome" i.e. for everyone. In reality they're okay but it's not like people here are actually happier or anything.

SticksAndBreaks 10y ago

The average IT-Enthusiast on youtube,streaming a project is usually male. The participation there is voluntarily, no discrimination by google. You cant carry the dog to hunt.

eli 10y ago
I implore you to seek out a woman who has ever posted a video about IT (or, worse, video games) and ask them how that experience went and if they're likely to repeat it. This is a big problem even if there isn't active discrimination by Google (or anyone else).
- SticksAndBreaks 10y ago
  Just put into the faces video some random looping guy GIF. And you can kick the usual horny teenager. You can not have a video at all, and not use a microphone- just chatting. The internet is asexual by nature which is great. Your argument is invalid, there is no problem there, except for one group demanding social controll over all others.
  - adrienne 10y ago
    So - women should only be on the internet if they're willing to hide their entire identity and never use their voice? And that's your idea of a solution?