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What sort of data do you need? Is this simple chart not enough to conclude there's a problem? https://www.dol.gov/wb/stats/Computer_information_technology_2014.

by eli 10y ago

What sort of data do you need? Is this simple chart not enough to conclude there's a problem? https://www.dol.gov/wb/stats/Computer_information_technology_2014.htm https://www.dol.gov/wb/stats/Computer_information_technology...

dpc_pw 10y ago
Not, if you know even basic theory behind statistics. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correlation_does_not_imply_causation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correlation_does_not_imply_cau...
- eli 10y ago
  Huh? I didn't say anything about causation.
scythe 10y ago
Of course it's not. It doesn't allow you compare to other industries at all. The question you answered was: >Do we have any comparative data that suggests that SV is any more sexist than most industries? You provide no comparative data. Comparison to other industries is necessary to identify the scale and causes of the problem, which are necessary in order to fix the problem.
- eli 10y ago
  I'm on my phone, but tech is generally worse(0) than doctors(1) and lawyers(2), two professions that made huge improvements in the last decade. Note that's just doctors and lawyers, not the whole legal and medical field, which would likely be an even more unfavorable comparison. How bad does tech have to be for you to acknowledge a problem? Isn't "worse the average female participation" bad enough? 0) https://www.dol.gov/wb/stats/Computer_information_technology_2014.htm https://www.dol.gov/wb/stats/Computer_information_technology... 1) http://kff.org/other/state-indicator/physicians-by-gender/?dataView=1&currentTimeframe=0&selectedRows=%7B"wrapups":%7B"united-states":%7B%7D%7D%7D&sortModel=%7B"colId":"Location","sort":"asc"%7D http://kff.org/other/state-indicator/physicians-by-gender/?d... 2) https://bol.bna.com/the-legal-professions-gender-imbalance-in-a-chart/ https://bol.bna.com/the-legal-professions-gender-imbalance-i...
  - scythe 10y ago
    >How bad does tech have to be for you to acknowledge a problem? Who said I didn't acknowledge there was a problem? The descriptor at issue is awful. The usual conditions for use of the word "awful" require more than just there being a problem. The alternate hypothesis that I mentioned, that sexism in tech comes from the country as a whole, is not a denial of there being a problem. I don't see how that could be inferred. >tech is generally worse(0) than doctors(1) and lawyers(2) Lawyers and doctors are generally highly educated, whereas the majority of the technical workforce has a Master's in some kind of engineering or even less. The educational institutions provide a means to change culture which generally means that cultural changes propagate faster here than in most of the country. As such it's a bit of a biased comparison. This is why, as you mention, there have been "huge improvements" in such a short time span as the last decade.
    - eli 10y ago
      I don't follow your point. Is the problem not sufficiently awful to bother trying to solve it? Or is it that tech is off the hook because it's the schools or "the country as a whole" (whatever that means) which is more to blame? The gender imbalance is particularly acute in silicon valley and I think SV has an obligation to do something about it. It isn't about whose fault it is.
      - scythe 10y ago
        I am arguing: - causation matters - SV is not a notable causal locus - Generally SV companies should be expected to comply with federal laws/norms on inclusiveness but "special action" is unnecessary and mostly self-congratulatory (oh wow this tech stuff is so awesome everyone should do it) - there is a plausible if isolated and somewhat orthogonal correlation between companies which make money by "breaking rules" and companies where people break rules as relates to acceptable social conduct. In the specific case of companies (AirBnB, Uber) who are essentially being paid by venture capitalists to ignore regulations and hide the money trail it makes sense that such norms may enforce loyalty. It's sort of like David Cameron's porcine bride. However only a small (but highly notorious) fraction of SV companies depend on this. On the third point I want to note that saying "tech jobs are awesome, why aren't more women in them" is a sneaky way of asserting "tech jobs are awesome" i.e. for everyone. In reality they're okay but it's not like people here are actually happier or anything.
code_duck 10y ago
The 'education level' field is the only data to compare whether the employees are equally qualified. There are many variables not accounted for other than gender that could affect salary. So, no, that simple chart is barely sufficient to demonstrate anything at all, certainly not systemic sexism.
jdietrich 10y ago
Representation tells us almost nothing, because of the problems further up the pipeline. Women aren't studying CS in large numbers, which may or may not have anything to do with SV. Women make up only 18% of computer science graduates, so one could easily argue that your data shows that women are significantly over-represented in the industry. Why so few women study computer science is an important question. Again, I think it's dangerous to presume the answer without sufficient data. https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d12/tables/dt12_349.asp https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d12/tables/dt12_349.asp
- eli 10y ago
  Fewer women studying CS is a problem SV should care about, not an excuse.
  - jdietrich 10y ago
    If SV is actually a great place for women to work, then front-page stories about it being awful isn't going to help increase the number of female CS students.
    - eli 10y ago
      If truthful news reports make SV look bad, the problem ain't the news media.
      - LyndsySimon 10y ago
        News can be both truthful and misleading. The frequency and tone of this type of article is completely disproportional to reality. There are definitely problems in how women are treated in tech, just as there are in every other field with similar demographics that comes to mind. Those problems need to be addressed. The title of this article is "Why is Silicon Valley So Awful to Women?", though. "Awful". Do you really believe that it's "awful", particularly relative to all other professions?
        10y ago

by eli 10y ago

dpc_pw 10y ago

Not, if you know even basic theory behind statistics. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correlation_does_not_imply_causation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correlation_does_not_imply_cau...

eli 10y ago
Huh? I didn't say anything about causation.

scythe 10y ago

Of course it's not. It doesn't allow you compare to other industries at all. The question you answered was: >Do we have any comparative data that suggests that SV is any more sexist than most industries? You provide no comparative data. Comparison to other industries is necessary to identify the scale and causes of the problem, which are necessary in order to fix the problem.

eli 10y ago
I'm on my phone, but tech is generally worse(0) than doctors(1) and lawyers(2), two professions that made huge improvements in the last decade. Note that's just doctors and lawyers, not the whole legal and medical field, which would likely be an even more unfavorable comparison. How bad does tech have to be for you to acknowledge a problem? Isn't "worse the average female participation" bad enough? 0) https://www.dol.gov/wb/stats/Computer_information_technology_2014.htm https://www.dol.gov/wb/stats/Computer_information_technology... 1) http://kff.org/other/state-indicator/physicians-by-gender/?dataView=1&currentTimeframe=0&selectedRows=%7B"wrapups":%7B"united-states":%7B%7D%7D%7D&sortModel=%7B"colId":"Location","sort":"asc"%7D http://kff.org/other/state-indicator/physicians-by-gender/?d... 2) https://bol.bna.com/the-legal-professions-gender-imbalance-in-a-chart/ https://bol.bna.com/the-legal-professions-gender-imbalance-i...
- scythe 10y ago
  >How bad does tech have to be for you to acknowledge a problem? Who said I didn't acknowledge there was a problem? The descriptor at issue is awful. The usual conditions for use of the word "awful" require more than just there being a problem. The alternate hypothesis that I mentioned, that sexism in tech comes from the country as a whole, is not a denial of there being a problem. I don't see how that could be inferred. >tech is generally worse(0) than doctors(1) and lawyers(2) Lawyers and doctors are generally highly educated, whereas the majority of the technical workforce has a Master's in some kind of engineering or even less. The educational institutions provide a means to change culture which generally means that cultural changes propagate faster here than in most of the country. As such it's a bit of a biased comparison. This is why, as you mention, there have been "huge improvements" in such a short time span as the last decade.
  - eli 10y ago
    I don't follow your point. Is the problem not sufficiently awful to bother trying to solve it? Or is it that tech is off the hook because it's the schools or "the country as a whole" (whatever that means) which is more to blame? The gender imbalance is particularly acute in silicon valley and I think SV has an obligation to do something about it. It isn't about whose fault it is.
    - scythe 10y ago
      I am arguing: - causation matters - SV is not a notable causal locus - Generally SV companies should be expected to comply with federal laws/norms on inclusiveness but "special action" is unnecessary and mostly self-congratulatory (oh wow this tech stuff is so awesome everyone should do it) - there is a plausible if isolated and somewhat orthogonal correlation between companies which make money by "breaking rules" and companies where people break rules as relates to acceptable social conduct. In the specific case of companies (AirBnB, Uber) who are essentially being paid by venture capitalists to ignore regulations and hide the money trail it makes sense that such norms may enforce loyalty. It's sort of like David Cameron's porcine bride. However only a small (but highly notorious) fraction of SV companies depend on this. On the third point I want to note that saying "tech jobs are awesome, why aren't more women in them" is a sneaky way of asserting "tech jobs are awesome" i.e. for everyone. In reality they're okay but it's not like people here are actually happier or anything.

code_duck 10y ago

The 'education level' field is the only data to compare whether the employees are equally qualified. There are many variables not accounted for other than gender that could affect salary. So, no, that simple chart is barely sufficient to demonstrate anything at all, certainly not systemic sexism.

jdietrich 10y ago

Representation tells us almost nothing, because of the problems further up the pipeline. Women aren't studying CS in large numbers, which may or may not have anything to do with SV. Women make up only 18% of computer science graduates, so one could easily argue that your data shows that women are significantly over-represented in the industry. Why so few women study computer science is an important question. Again, I think it's dangerous to presume the answer without sufficient data. https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d12/tables/dt12_349.asp https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d12/tables/dt12_349.asp

eli 10y ago
Fewer women studying CS is a problem SV should care about, not an excuse.
- jdietrich 10y ago
  If SV is actually a great place for women to work, then front-page stories about it being awful isn't going to help increase the number of female CS students.
  - eli 10y ago
    If truthful news reports make SV look bad, the problem ain't the news media.
    - LyndsySimon 10y ago
      News can be both truthful and misleading. The frequency and tone of this type of article is completely disproportional to reality. There are definitely problems in how women are treated in tech, just as there are in every other field with similar demographics that comes to mind. Those problems need to be addressed. The title of this article is "Why is Silicon Valley So Awful to Women?", though. "Awful". Do you really believe that it's "awful", particularly relative to all other professions?
      - 10y ago