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I don't have a dog in this fight, but this is a clear case of begging the question. Is Silicon Valley really awful to women? Do we have any comparative data tha

I don't have a dog in this fight, but this is a clear case of begging the question. Is Silicon Valley really awful to women? Do we have any comparative data that suggests that SV is any more sexist than most industries? I hear a lot of unpleasant anecdotes, but very little data. I think that the answer to this question is very important. If we operate on the presumption that SV is uniquely awful, then we may be looking for solutions to sexism in all the wrong places.

sdflkd 10y ago
Where does it say it's uniquely awful instead of simply awful? If you read the article there is data too, btw.
- darawk 10y ago
  The question implies it. The question "why is silicon valley so awful to women" implies that it is uniquely so, otherwise the question would be "why are men so awful to women", or "why is corporate america so awful to women".
  - eli 10y ago
    SV is objectively worse than corporate America as a whole... But that doesn't really matter. Tech has a problem and other industries also having problems -- maybe even worse problems! -- doesn't excuse it. This is fixable, but it starts with acknowledging it exists.
    - darawk 10y ago
      That's an interesting theory. The question though is whether or not it is true. It certainly could be true. But it could also be that SV is more self-critical, and so we hear about it more. It could also be that we (denizens of HN, that is) are in SV (in the broad sense of 'tech') and therefore more aware of its shortcomings. And it could also be that it is in fact more hostile to women. In the absence of data, we simply don't know.
      - eli 10y ago
        There's nothing theoretical about the objective fact that women are underrepresented in tech jobs.
        darawk 10y ago
        Underrepresented != Treated poorly.
        eli 10y ago
        Did I say otherwise? Underrepresention is a problem worth addressing in its own right. There's also evidence (e.g. in the linked article) that women are indeed treated unfairly.
        darawk 10y ago
        No one is discussing under-representation in this thread. What's being discussed is how women are treated. Your response was either a non-sequitur, or referring to the article, which is discussing the treatment of women.
        LyndsySimon 10y ago
        > Underrepresention is a problem worth addressing in its own right. Not on its own, it's not. The vast majority of healthcare workers are female. 98% of dental hygienists, and 91% of RNs are women. There are 3.6m programmers in the US (as of 2017) and 3.5m nurses (as of 2011) - programmers and nurses have relatively similar salary ranges. Is the underrepresentation of men in the nursing profession worth addressing on its own? How about electricians? 99% of journeyman electricians in the US are male. Is that worth addressing?
        DanBC 10y ago
        > Is the underrepresentation of men in the nursing profession worth addressing on its own? Yes, and there are programmes encouraging men to go into nursing.
  - Alex3917 10y ago
    The reason for the title, as explained in the article, is because it's surprising. In other words, you wouldn't think that the culture of SV would often be difficult for women based on the way these companies market themselves. It's the same reason why after every election there are dozens of articles about white progressives being at odds with the black community, as opposed to just having a general article on race relations in America or whatever.
  - rhizome 10y ago
    The question implies it. It does not. Another reading would say, "why is it as awful as it is?"
eli 10y ago
What sort of data do you need? Is this simple chart not enough to conclude there's a problem? https://www.dol.gov/wb/stats/Computer_information_technology_2014.htm https://www.dol.gov/wb/stats/Computer_information_technology...
- dpc_pw 10y ago
  Not, if you know even basic theory behind statistics. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correlation_does_not_imply_causation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correlation_does_not_imply_cau...
  - eli 10y ago
    Huh? I didn't say anything about causation.
- scythe 10y ago
  Of course it's not. It doesn't allow you compare to other industries at all. The question you answered was: >Do we have any comparative data that suggests that SV is any more sexist than most industries? You provide no comparative data. Comparison to other industries is necessary to identify the scale and causes of the problem, which are necessary in order to fix the problem.
  - eli 10y ago
    I'm on my phone, but tech is generally worse(0) than doctors(1) and lawyers(2), two professions that made huge improvements in the last decade. Note that's just doctors and lawyers, not the whole legal and medical field, which would likely be an even more unfavorable comparison. How bad does tech have to be for you to acknowledge a problem? Isn't "worse the average female participation" bad enough? 0) https://www.dol.gov/wb/stats/Computer_information_technology_2014.htm https://www.dol.gov/wb/stats/Computer_information_technology... 1) http://kff.org/other/state-indicator/physicians-by-gender/?dataView=1&currentTimeframe=0&selectedRows=%7B"wrapups":%7B"united-states":%7B%7D%7D%7D&sortModel=%7B"colId":"Location","sort":"asc"%7D http://kff.org/other/state-indicator/physicians-by-gender/?d... 2) https://bol.bna.com/the-legal-professions-gender-imbalance-in-a-chart/ https://bol.bna.com/the-legal-professions-gender-imbalance-i...
ebbv 10y ago
It's important to keep in mind when analyzing this issue; SV is not "an industry." There are many companies there across a variety of industries, many of which are tech related. But as much as the media would have us believe otherwise "tech" is not one actual industry. It's a poorly defined category of industries. My point being, SV companies are so diverse across their actual industries it's probably best to compare them as a region against companies in other major regions.
MilnerRoute 10y ago
"A recent survey called “Elephant in the Valley” found that nearly all of the 200-plus senior women in tech who responded had experienced sexist interactions." -- from the article (which includes a link)
- deleted 10y ago
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- deleted 10y ago
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- jdietrich 10y ago
  See the word "comparative" in my comment. We don't know if women in tech are experiencing exceptionally high levels of sexism, exceptionally low levels or completely average levels. The answer to that question matters greatly to how we formulate a response to whatever level of sexism exists in our industry.
  - MilnerRoute 10y ago
    So we should ignore this study? Until we find out if the number of women experiencing sexism in the rest of America is worse than "nearly all"?
  - joycey 10y ago
    Suppose the amount of sexism in Silicon Valley is average, or even below average. Do you think that means there's nothing we can do and that we should just accept it as a fact of life? I would say that so long as the amount of sexism is non-zero there's work that can be done.
deleted 10y ago
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bootload 10y ago
" I hear a lot of unpleasant anecdotes, but very little data." Question was asked in the article, ("Where are the numbers?"). [0] For all the posturing on how good SV is at data, the question has to be asked, "Why can't tech companies collect and show data on staff?" [1] The only conclusion I can make is SV tech companies do not see this as an ^authentic^ problem. Reference [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13880515 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13880515 [1] Staff numbers, pay, diversity, disciplinary actions taken, reported, etc.

sdflkd 10y ago

Where does it say it's uniquely awful instead of simply awful? If you read the article there is data too, btw.

darawk 10y ago
The question implies it. The question "why is silicon valley so awful to women" implies that it is uniquely so, otherwise the question would be "why are men so awful to women", or "why is corporate america so awful to women".
- eli 10y ago
  SV is objectively worse than corporate America as a whole... But that doesn't really matter. Tech has a problem and other industries also having problems -- maybe even worse problems! -- doesn't excuse it. This is fixable, but it starts with acknowledging it exists.
  - darawk 10y ago
    That's an interesting theory. The question though is whether or not it is true. It certainly could be true. But it could also be that SV is more self-critical, and so we hear about it more. It could also be that we (denizens of HN, that is) are in SV (in the broad sense of 'tech') and therefore more aware of its shortcomings. And it could also be that it is in fact more hostile to women. In the absence of data, we simply don't know.
    - eli 10y ago
      There's nothing theoretical about the objective fact that women are underrepresented in tech jobs.
      - darawk 10y ago
        Underrepresented != Treated poorly.
        eli 10y ago
        Did I say otherwise? Underrepresention is a problem worth addressing in its own right. There's also evidence (e.g. in the linked article) that women are indeed treated unfairly.
        darawk 10y ago
        No one is discussing under-representation in this thread. What's being discussed is how women are treated. Your response was either a non-sequitur, or referring to the article, which is discussing the treatment of women.
        LyndsySimon 10y ago
        > Underrepresention is a problem worth addressing in its own right. Not on its own, it's not. The vast majority of healthcare workers are female. 98% of dental hygienists, and 91% of RNs are women. There are 3.6m programmers in the US (as of 2017) and 3.5m nurses (as of 2011) - programmers and nurses have relatively similar salary ranges. Is the underrepresentation of men in the nursing profession worth addressing on its own? How about electricians? 99% of journeyman electricians in the US are male. Is that worth addressing?
        DanBC 10y ago
        > Is the underrepresentation of men in the nursing profession worth addressing on its own? Yes, and there are programmes encouraging men to go into nursing.
- Alex3917 10y ago
  The reason for the title, as explained in the article, is because it's surprising. In other words, you wouldn't think that the culture of SV would often be difficult for women based on the way these companies market themselves. It's the same reason why after every election there are dozens of articles about white progressives being at odds with the black community, as opposed to just having a general article on race relations in America or whatever.
- rhizome 10y ago
  The question implies it. It does not. Another reading would say, "why is it as awful as it is?"

eli 10y ago

What sort of data do you need? Is this simple chart not enough to conclude there's a problem? https://www.dol.gov/wb/stats/Computer_information_technology_2014.htm https://www.dol.gov/wb/stats/Computer_information_technology...

dpc_pw 10y ago
Not, if you know even basic theory behind statistics. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correlation_does_not_imply_causation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correlation_does_not_imply_cau...
- eli 10y ago
  Huh? I didn't say anything about causation.
scythe 10y ago
Of course it's not. It doesn't allow you compare to other industries at all. The question you answered was: >Do we have any comparative data that suggests that SV is any more sexist than most industries? You provide no comparative data. Comparison to other industries is necessary to identify the scale and causes of the problem, which are necessary in order to fix the problem.
- eli 10y ago
  I'm on my phone, but tech is generally worse(0) than doctors(1) and lawyers(2), two professions that made huge improvements in the last decade. Note that's just doctors and lawyers, not the whole legal and medical field, which would likely be an even more unfavorable comparison. How bad does tech have to be for you to acknowledge a problem? Isn't "worse the average female participation" bad enough? 0) https://www.dol.gov/wb/stats/Computer_information_technology_2014.htm https://www.dol.gov/wb/stats/Computer_information_technology... 1) http://kff.org/other/state-indicator/physicians-by-gender/?dataView=1&currentTimeframe=0&selectedRows=%7B"wrapups":%7B"united-states":%7B%7D%7D%7D&sortModel=%7B"colId":"Location","sort":"asc"%7D http://kff.org/other/state-indicator/physicians-by-gender/?d... 2) https://bol.bna.com/the-legal-professions-gender-imbalance-in-a-chart/ https://bol.bna.com/the-legal-professions-gender-imbalance-i...

ebbv 10y ago

It's important to keep in mind when analyzing this issue; SV is not "an industry." There are many companies there across a variety of industries, many of which are tech related. But as much as the media would have us believe otherwise "tech" is not one actual industry. It's a poorly defined category of industries. My point being, SV companies are so diverse across their actual industries it's probably best to compare them as a region against companies in other major regions.

MilnerRoute 10y ago

"A recent survey called “Elephant in the Valley” found that nearly all of the 200-plus senior women in tech who responded had experienced sexist interactions." -- from the article (which includes a link)

deleted 10y ago
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deleted 10y ago
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jdietrich 10y ago
See the word "comparative" in my comment. We don't know if women in tech are experiencing exceptionally high levels of sexism, exceptionally low levels or completely average levels. The answer to that question matters greatly to how we formulate a response to whatever level of sexism exists in our industry.
- MilnerRoute 10y ago
  So we should ignore this study? Until we find out if the number of women experiencing sexism in the rest of America is worse than "nearly all"?
- joycey 10y ago
  Suppose the amount of sexism in Silicon Valley is average, or even below average. Do you think that means there's nothing we can do and that we should just accept it as a fact of life? I would say that so long as the amount of sexism is non-zero there's work that can be done.

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

bootload 10y ago

" I hear a lot of unpleasant anecdotes, but very little data." Question was asked in the article, ("Where are the numbers?"). [0] For all the posturing on how good SV is at data, the question has to be asked, "Why can't tech companies collect and show data on staff?" [1] The only conclusion I can make is SV tech companies do not see this as an ^authentic^ problem. Reference [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13880515 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13880515 [1] Staff numbers, pay, diversity, disciplinary actions taken, reported, etc.