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> "Being yourself", authenticity, and direct/brutal honesty are roughly orthogonal; you can (or not be) one without affecting the others. While I agree with th

by Indy_Dh 10y ago

> "Being yourself", authenticity, and direct/brutal honesty are roughly orthogonal; you can (or not be) one without affecting the others. While I agree with the general sentiment of your post, I find quote does not actually work out in practice. I have been in many situations (ie around family, coworkers, etc) where the group has a strong opinion about something and I feel the opposite. I would usually not chime in and let the conversation move on, but when people ask your opinion, there is a decision. As far as I can see, the options are basically: 1) Lie: not authentic or direct honesty 2) Avoid/Deflect: maintain authenticity, not direct honesty 3) Fein disinterest: lacking authenticity, not direct honesty 4) Express your dissent: authentic, direct honesty The only options for maintaining authenticity are to be directly honest, or to not answer, and there is a limit to the extent you can avoid answering direct questions and still maintain freedom and conserve your energy and focus. So while I agree that you don't have to be brutally honest to be authentic, I would say they are far from orthogonal. Sometimes choices have to be made, especially around people who have a tendency to pry or ask your opinion a lot.

soperj 10y ago
Being yourself doesn't mean not lieing.
- wolfgke 10y ago
  If you are a very honest kind of person, it does.
jbattle 10y ago
another tack is to harmonize. In this situation for example, you'd take a few elements of the group's consensus and fold in your own thoughts - synthesizing a new position that expresses your own ideas but with some 'bridges' that help the group relate to what you are expressing. Maybe even changing your own position marginally in the process.
- LouisSayers 10y ago
  Yes! I totally do this - you show that you've listened to the other person, that their opinion is important, and then go into reasoning about why you have a differing opinion. This is of course, if the other person actually wants to have a conversation. If I feel they simply want to vent their frustration, then I usually just let them say what they have to say, and not bother responding. Sometimes it's better just to keep quiet and say nothing. If people are venting, and I'm asked directly however, I usually confront the underlying topic - that people are venting for example. Sometimes questions are asked as a type of manipulation, or have a different intention other than receiving an answer to the question.
  - RangerScience 10y ago
    I frequently find myself asking people if they want to vent, or solve. I'm game for either, but like many of you, pretty sure "solve" is our default state and "vent" is theirs and the mismatch? Not so great.
    - afarrell 10y ago
      Yea, my wives is pretty 93% in "solve" mode and I'm 84% in "solve" mode so we try to explicitly say "can I just vent (or talk something out loud) to you?"
mjevans 10y ago
It is sad how often people aren't willing to 'agree to disagree'.
- mordae 10y ago
  It is much sadder to see how often are people willing to abandon the ancient ideal of truth-seeking and prefer conflict avoidance.
  - sanderjd 10y ago
    This presumes a level of objective truth that is almost never available within the confines of casual conversation. I find the failure mode of a stubborn "truth-seeker" far more obnoxious in most settings than the failure mode of someone saying "huh, that's interesting, I'll have to look into that more" even when they're pretty sure they're right.
    - Jach 10y ago
      "Huh, I'll have to look into that more" (and presumably get back to you) is not agreeing to disagree, though. I suspect 'mordae was making a reference to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aumann%27s_agreement_theorem https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aumann%27s_agreement_theorem
  - bcoates 10y ago
    It's not hard to tell if someone is actually seeking dialectic and wants to pursue the truth. The vast majority of people are making smalltalk and may as well be discussing professional basketball.
  - stagbeetle 10y ago
    > ancient ideal > truth-seeking Surely you realize how much of an oxymoron that is. Follow an unrealistic and impractical standard, just as your forefathers have. Why? Because it is righteous and good. There's no point in finding the truth. Perhaps if your knowledge seeking gives you positive neurochemical feedback, more power to you, but to denigrate all of society for not conforming to your ideals is a very ugly personality trait.
koolba 10y ago
The problem comes to a head when you get the tech equivalent of "Does this make me look fat?". The vast majority of the time, people asking things like that don't want to hear the truth. They want a partner for their mental trip to fantasy land.
- walshemj 10y ago
  Does this JavaScript framework make my website look fat :-)
  - wolfgke 10y ago
    Yes, I measured the kibibytes - it really does. :-) And if you really want to go by looks (as you worded your question): I tested it with a proxy that slows down the connection - one can see the time the website builds itself up and how it looks as long as not all the data of your fatty JS framework arrived. :-)
- wolfgke 10y ago
  > The problem comes to a head when you get the tech equivalent of "Does this make me look fat?". The vast majority of the time, people asking things like that don't want to hear the truth. If a majority of society would answer such questions with brutal honesty, the stupid idea of asking questions where they don't want to hear the truth would disappear. This sounds like a better world. So I have to conclude the "politeness" is what prevents improvement in this section.
  - throwanem 10y ago
    Yes. Truly, nothing improves a society like the constant exercise of interpersonal brutality.
    - RangerScience 10y ago
      Lol. Clearly! "An armed society is a polite society" (pointing out a parallel, not expressing an opinion)
scardine 10y ago
You can also take the socratic approach and just ask good questions instead of making statements. Sometimes you don't even have to ask, just mirror your counterpart (repeat his last statement as a question) and make good use of silence. Wu wei all the way.
- kartickv 10y ago
  One the quotes that matters most to me and that I apply in my daily life is: Judge a man by his questions rather than this answers. Even if you've asked the right question, and lost, you're better off than not having asked the question at all.
- rukuu001 10y ago
  Yes! I am by nature non-confrontational, but this is how I dissent in a discussion without getting into a heated argument (when the possibility of changing minds goes out the window anyway). This is still difficult, but better than staying quiet or lying, a path to self-contempt.

by Indy_Dh 10y ago

soperj 10y ago

Being yourself doesn't mean not lieing.

wolfgke 10y ago
If you are a very honest kind of person, it does.

jbattle 10y ago

another tack is to harmonize. In this situation for example, you'd take a few elements of the group's consensus and fold in your own thoughts - synthesizing a new position that expresses your own ideas but with some 'bridges' that help the group relate to what you are expressing. Maybe even changing your own position marginally in the process.

LouisSayers 10y ago
Yes! I totally do this - you show that you've listened to the other person, that their opinion is important, and then go into reasoning about why you have a differing opinion. This is of course, if the other person actually wants to have a conversation. If I feel they simply want to vent their frustration, then I usually just let them say what they have to say, and not bother responding. Sometimes it's better just to keep quiet and say nothing. If people are venting, and I'm asked directly however, I usually confront the underlying topic - that people are venting for example. Sometimes questions are asked as a type of manipulation, or have a different intention other than receiving an answer to the question.
- RangerScience 10y ago
  I frequently find myself asking people if they want to vent, or solve. I'm game for either, but like many of you, pretty sure "solve" is our default state and "vent" is theirs and the mismatch? Not so great.
  - afarrell 10y ago
    Yea, my wives is pretty 93% in "solve" mode and I'm 84% in "solve" mode so we try to explicitly say "can I just vent (or talk something out loud) to you?"

mjevans 10y ago

It is sad how often people aren't willing to 'agree to disagree'.

mordae 10y ago
It is much sadder to see how often are people willing to abandon the ancient ideal of truth-seeking and prefer conflict avoidance.
- sanderjd 10y ago
  This presumes a level of objective truth that is almost never available within the confines of casual conversation. I find the failure mode of a stubborn "truth-seeker" far more obnoxious in most settings than the failure mode of someone saying "huh, that's interesting, I'll have to look into that more" even when they're pretty sure they're right.
  - Jach 10y ago
    "Huh, I'll have to look into that more" (and presumably get back to you) is not agreeing to disagree, though. I suspect 'mordae was making a reference to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aumann%27s_agreement_theorem https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aumann%27s_agreement_theorem
- bcoates 10y ago
  It's not hard to tell if someone is actually seeking dialectic and wants to pursue the truth. The vast majority of people are making smalltalk and may as well be discussing professional basketball.
- stagbeetle 10y ago
  > ancient ideal > truth-seeking Surely you realize how much of an oxymoron that is. Follow an unrealistic and impractical standard, just as your forefathers have. Why? Because it is righteous and good. There's no point in finding the truth. Perhaps if your knowledge seeking gives you positive neurochemical feedback, more power to you, but to denigrate all of society for not conforming to your ideals is a very ugly personality trait.

koolba 10y ago

The problem comes to a head when you get the tech equivalent of "Does this make me look fat?". The vast majority of the time, people asking things like that don't want to hear the truth. They want a partner for their mental trip to fantasy land.

walshemj 10y ago
Does this JavaScript framework make my website look fat :-)
- wolfgke 10y ago
  Yes, I measured the kibibytes - it really does. :-) And if you really want to go by looks (as you worded your question): I tested it with a proxy that slows down the connection - one can see the time the website builds itself up and how it looks as long as not all the data of your fatty JS framework arrived. :-)
wolfgke 10y ago
> The problem comes to a head when you get the tech equivalent of "Does this make me look fat?". The vast majority of the time, people asking things like that don't want to hear the truth. If a majority of society would answer such questions with brutal honesty, the stupid idea of asking questions where they don't want to hear the truth would disappear. This sounds like a better world. So I have to conclude the "politeness" is what prevents improvement in this section.
- throwanem 10y ago
  Yes. Truly, nothing improves a society like the constant exercise of interpersonal brutality.
  - RangerScience 10y ago
    Lol. Clearly! "An armed society is a polite society" (pointing out a parallel, not expressing an opinion)

scardine 10y ago

You can also take the socratic approach and just ask good questions instead of making statements. Sometimes you don't even have to ask, just mirror your counterpart (repeat his last statement as a question) and make good use of silence. Wu wei all the way.

kartickv 10y ago
One the quotes that matters most to me and that I apply in my daily life is: Judge a man by his questions rather than this answers. Even if you've asked the right question, and lost, you're better off than not having asked the question at all.
rukuu001 10y ago
Yes! I am by nature non-confrontational, but this is how I dissent in a discussion without getting into a heated argument (when the possibility of changing minds goes out the window anyway). This is still difficult, but better than staying quiet or lying, a path to self-contempt.