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I like this. Very well put. However, I can't seem to be able to make a connection with the examples your parent comment mentioned. For example, if you want to

I like this. Very well put. However, I can't seem to be able to make a connection with the examples your parent comment mentioned. For example, if you want to lose weight but keep eating fast food despite that---what is the healthy need manifesting through that, and how do you address it in some other, good way? Same with being addicted to e.g. alcohol or smoking.

naasking 10y ago
> For example, if you want to lose weight but keep eating fast food despite that---what is the healthy need manifesting through that, and how do you address it in some other, good way? If it's not a nutritional deficiency, then perhaps it's a snacking habit, so maybe switch to nuts, sunflower seeds or fruit. The habit starts losing its power when you're no longer flooding yourself with high doses of sugar and/or salt, which is where the habit's positive reinforcement comes from.
- komali2 10y ago
  Another extremely difficult aspect of that "battle" or self-improvement mindset: our mental state depends a great deal on body chemistry. Sure it's hard to start lifting, but if you've been lifting for a year and have a lot of fun dopamine floating around as a result and have had time to associate lifting with those dopamine rushes, it's actually harder to not lift. It's almost unfair, really, that our mental state is kind of "out of our control." If you're 2 days without food, being a "good person" and maintaining your values becomes extremely difficult. After 5, forget about it, your humanity will have almost completely slipped away, and there's almost nothing you can do about it.
hackuser 10y ago
> if you want to lose weight but keep eating fast food despite that---what is the healthy need manifesting through that, and how do you address it in some other, good way? That really depends on the individual; if you'd like to sit on my couch for a couple years ... (I'd have no idea what to do). But as examples, if your body doesn't need something nutritionally (e.g., more energy), perhaps the junk food is a source of comfort and relief from stress (i.e., 'comfort food'); there are healthier ways to obtain relief from and to otherwise deal with stress. Perhaps the buzz from the sugar and fat is an escape or makes the person feel energized; again, there are healthier solutions. Again, I don't pretend to be an expert and what I wrote in the GP isn't the answer to life, the universe, and everything. Part of nurturing yourself is pushing yourself at times and training, but IMHO without battling and abusing yourself - again, like a good coach, teacher or manager. > Same with being addicted to e.g. alcohol or smoking I would think that physical (i.e., chemical) addictions are different; your body requires that chemical. Alcoholism is a disease, AFAIK.
- komali2 10y ago
  > I would think that physical (i.e., chemical) addictions are different; your body requires that chemical. Alcoholism is a disease, AFAIK. The interesting thing is I believe I can make a convincing argument that "life" is a disease that can be overcome - for example, a highly trained monk can meditate himself to death, ignoring the body's desire for food or water. When it comes to us, "require" can, with training, be nullified. We can even, apparently, out-think our most basic pain responses (see: the burning monk).
- thegeomaster 10y ago
  >I would think that physical (i.e., chemical) addictions are different; your body requires that chemical. Alcoholism is a disease, AFAIK. I'd argue that this is not completely true, as in, there's a significant psychological component as well. I can give a personal example. I'm trying to quit smoking by gradually lowering my nicotine intake, or "cut down to quit". Currently, I've reduced the amount I smoke by several orders of magnitude, and I no longer feel any kind of physical need. Still, I procrastinate with actually making the leap to non-smoker, and I find that my desire to smoke is now driven by purely psychological impulses that I have a lot more trouble controlling than merely ignoring physical withdrawal symptoms. I'm trying to come up with a good explanation of all that, and you offered a compelling view on the subject―that's the only reason I'm so curious in debating this topic.
  - hackuser 10y ago
    I agree that those things can be due to both a 'chemical requirement' and the type of need I was describing above. What distinguishes them is the chemical requirement; once that is gone, the need fits in the other category - that's all I meant. Personally, I figured out that I was going to engage in some kind of habitual 'escape' periodically (I would guess that is true of everyone). It didn't matter what it was; if I stopped one, then I'd start another. As a result, I try to purposely choose things that are as healthy as possible, or at least harmless, and maybe even a little productive. Hobbies can be good for that, though they aren't exactly the same thing. EDIT: Some clarifying edits

naasking 10y ago

> For example, if you want to lose weight but keep eating fast food despite that---what is the healthy need manifesting through that, and how do you address it in some other, good way? If it's not a nutritional deficiency, then perhaps it's a snacking habit, so maybe switch to nuts, sunflower seeds or fruit. The habit starts losing its power when you're no longer flooding yourself with high doses of sugar and/or salt, which is where the habit's positive reinforcement comes from.

komali2 10y ago
Another extremely difficult aspect of that "battle" or self-improvement mindset: our mental state depends a great deal on body chemistry. Sure it's hard to start lifting, but if you've been lifting for a year and have a lot of fun dopamine floating around as a result and have had time to associate lifting with those dopamine rushes, it's actually harder to not lift. It's almost unfair, really, that our mental state is kind of "out of our control." If you're 2 days without food, being a "good person" and maintaining your values becomes extremely difficult. After 5, forget about it, your humanity will have almost completely slipped away, and there's almost nothing you can do about it.

hackuser 10y ago

> if you want to lose weight but keep eating fast food despite that---what is the healthy need manifesting through that, and how do you address it in some other, good way? That really depends on the individual; if you'd like to sit on my couch for a couple years ... (I'd have no idea what to do). But as examples, if your body doesn't need something nutritionally (e.g., more energy), perhaps the junk food is a source of comfort and relief from stress (i.e., 'comfort food'); there are healthier ways to obtain relief from and to otherwise deal with stress. Perhaps the buzz from the sugar and fat is an escape or makes the person feel energized; again, there are healthier solutions. Again, I don't pretend to be an expert and what I wrote in the GP isn't the answer to life, the universe, and everything. Part of nurturing yourself is pushing yourself at times and training, but IMHO without battling and abusing yourself - again, like a good coach, teacher or manager. > Same with being addicted to e.g. alcohol or smoking I would think that physical (i.e., chemical) addictions are different; your body requires that chemical. Alcoholism is a disease, AFAIK.

komali2 10y ago
> I would think that physical (i.e., chemical) addictions are different; your body requires that chemical. Alcoholism is a disease, AFAIK. The interesting thing is I believe I can make a convincing argument that "life" is a disease that can be overcome - for example, a highly trained monk can meditate himself to death, ignoring the body's desire for food or water. When it comes to us, "require" can, with training, be nullified. We can even, apparently, out-think our most basic pain responses (see: the burning monk).
thegeomaster 10y ago
>I would think that physical (i.e., chemical) addictions are different; your body requires that chemical. Alcoholism is a disease, AFAIK. I'd argue that this is not completely true, as in, there's a significant psychological component as well. I can give a personal example. I'm trying to quit smoking by gradually lowering my nicotine intake, or "cut down to quit". Currently, I've reduced the amount I smoke by several orders of magnitude, and I no longer feel any kind of physical need. Still, I procrastinate with actually making the leap to non-smoker, and I find that my desire to smoke is now driven by purely psychological impulses that I have a lot more trouble controlling than merely ignoring physical withdrawal symptoms. I'm trying to come up with a good explanation of all that, and you offered a compelling view on the subject―that's the only reason I'm so curious in debating this topic.
- hackuser 10y ago
  I agree that those things can be due to both a 'chemical requirement' and the type of need I was describing above. What distinguishes them is the chemical requirement; once that is gone, the need fits in the other category - that's all I meant. Personally, I figured out that I was going to engage in some kind of habitual 'escape' periodically (I would guess that is true of everyone). It didn't matter what it was; if I stopped one, then I'd start another. As a result, I try to purposely choose things that are as healthy as possible, or at least harmless, and maybe even a little productive. Hobbies can be good for that, though they aren't exactly the same thing. EDIT: Some clarifying edits