3 ms·

It's not really a position you can force from further away than one move, since it would require complete cooperation between the players to create such a posit

It's not really a position you can force from further away than one move, since it would require complete cooperation between the players to create such a position. But yes, given a chance to get into this position, sure it will - e.g. given https://en.lichess.org/analysis/8/p7/kpP5/qrp1b3/rpP2b2/p5b1/PP2K3/8_w_-_- https://en.lichess.org/analysis/8/p7/kpP5/qrp1b3/rpP2b2/p5b1..., it will correctly play b3 and force the original position, since everything else results in a mate that it can see. All it needs for correct play is to rank the alternatives in the right order, and mate ranks below playing on with a material disadvantage.

ouid 10y ago
https://en.lichess.org/analysis/8/p7/kpn5/qrpPb3/rpP2b2/pP4Q1/P3K2b/8_w_-_- https://en.lichess.org/analysis/8/p7/kpn5/qrpPb3/rpP2b2/pP4Q... here's a preceding position which stockfish completely fails to play correctly.
- yaakov34 10y ago
  Yeah, that's a great enhancement to the original - having the queen around lets the computer avoid mate for longer than its horizon, so it prefers keeping the queen. Then again, I am not sure the computer will lose in even this scenario - it has so many queen checks that my evaluation of this position after 10 minutes of playing with it is "screw it", although I feel there has to be some way of punishing it.
  - ouid 10y ago
    well you're playing against a computer that doesn't understand the position, black should simply disentangle his pieces, he can sacrifice almost everything he has and still win in this position, even if white is allowed to keep the queen. He can sacrifice a queen and a rook to this end, easily. how I play the position as black is Ne7 followed by Bd6. if white plays Qh4, I can play nd4+ followed by nf5 and nd6, and my king is safe. and I can slowly, safely, extricate myself and win.
    - yaakov34 10y ago
      I am not sure I follow you - you can't have Be6 since your bishops are all on dark squares. Anyway, I am not that interested in this particular position - there are better examples of horizon effects and so on. There is a great collection here: http://timkr.home.xs4all.nl/chess2/honor.htm http://timkr.home.xs4all.nl/chess2/honor.htm, although it's likely that the advancements in chess engines have obsoleted some of these positions since they were played.
      - ouid 10y ago
        doh, I meant Bd6*.

ouid 10y ago

https://en.lichess.org/analysis/8/p7/kpn5/qrpPb3/rpP2b2/pP4Q1/P3K2b/8_w_-_- https://en.lichess.org/analysis/8/p7/kpn5/qrpPb3/rpP2b2/pP4Q... here's a preceding position which stockfish completely fails to play correctly.

yaakov34 10y ago
Yeah, that's a great enhancement to the original - having the queen around lets the computer avoid mate for longer than its horizon, so it prefers keeping the queen. Then again, I am not sure the computer will lose in even this scenario - it has so many queen checks that my evaluation of this position after 10 minutes of playing with it is "screw it", although I feel there has to be some way of punishing it.
- ouid 10y ago
  well you're playing against a computer that doesn't understand the position, black should simply disentangle his pieces, he can sacrifice almost everything he has and still win in this position, even if white is allowed to keep the queen. He can sacrifice a queen and a rook to this end, easily. how I play the position as black is Ne7 followed by Bd6. if white plays Qh4, I can play nd4+ followed by nf5 and nd6, and my king is safe. and I can slowly, safely, extricate myself and win.
  - yaakov34 10y ago
    I am not sure I follow you - you can't have Be6 since your bishops are all on dark squares. Anyway, I am not that interested in this particular position - there are better examples of horizon effects and so on. There is a great collection here: http://timkr.home.xs4all.nl/chess2/honor.htm http://timkr.home.xs4all.nl/chess2/honor.htm, although it's likely that the advancements in chess engines have obsoleted some of these positions since they were played.
    - ouid 10y ago
      doh, I meant Bd6*.