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I'm struck by how much this echoes Confucius and the Analects and how they define the so-called gentleman or noble man (not to be confused with nobleman, and tr
by nybblet 10y ago
I'm struck by how much this echoes Confucius and the Analects and how they define the so-called gentleman or noble man (not to be confused with nobleman, and translation is hard). Given how unlikely it is that Chekhov had exposure to either, it's incredible to observe the universality of these qualities considered admirable.
If people haven't, do recommend checking out The Analects! Caveat: there are quite a few excerpts that need to be taken in historical perspective, or can be easily misinterpreted (e.g. advice to be slow to embrace new that was in context of centuries of chaos and warring, or statements on women that interpreted naïvely clearly contradict other statements on mothers).
- vlunkr 10y agoAs well as Christianity. (and maybe 90% of religions?)
- nybblet 10y agoAt a certain point, sure. There is, I suspect, an execution difference (which does not at all create mutual exclusivity) though. Have you read The Analects, out of curiosity? If so, you know what I mean. If not, by all means please check it out! It's a short read, unlike any of the Bible, Torah, or Quran ;)
- bryondowd 10y agoIs it unlikely that he had exposure to Confucius? Russia and China were bumping into each other before Chekhov's time, and a bit of Googling is turning up cases of Russian missionaries translating Chinese works to Russian in the early 1800s.
- nybblet 10y agoWas just a guess on a uniform prior :) If you have specific evidence of Chekhov referencing Confucius (the similarities are so striking that either he came up with them independently, which was my original point, or he was inspired by Confucius, which should then leave traces) please do tell! That would be really cool.
- bryondowd 10y agoI'm not savvy enough to know whether or where to find a list of works the Chekhov studied in his lifetime. I'll leave that search to others. Just floating idea that him coming across a translated work and it influencing his writing without him actually referencing it directly anywhere seems at least comparably likely as independent invention. Especially given that such translations at least existed in his time. I've got no idea about how widespread or accessible they were. But I'm not even a hobby historian or philologist, more of an armchair philosopher.
- nybblet 10y agoJust following up on the fascinating prospect you initiated. Which Russian missionaries translated which Chinese classics, since that you've already searched? I'm turning up Russian -> Chinese, not the other way around.
- bryondowd 10y agoHere's one of the resources I came across. I only perused it briefly, but it mentions a Father Yakinf returning to St Petersburg and translating "the Confucian classic Four Books (Sishu)" among other things. Hopefully this link works for you and isn't dependent on local cookies or something. But the book is: China and Japan in the Russian Imagination, 1685-1922: To the Ends of the Orient By Susanna Soojung Lim https://books.google.com/books?id=RQldRM5wlfcC&pg=PA65&lpg=PA65&dq=first+translation+of+confucius+to+russian&source=bl&ots=LtQpLXmcld&sig=OdJHY-2EiRy6idCek-VOpAmU32U&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwixp-TRztbSAhVM34MKHQ9UCNYQ6AEILzAE#v=onepage&q=first%20translation%20of%20confucius%20to%20russian&f=false https://books.google.com/books?id=RQldRM5wlfcC&pg=PA65&lpg=P...
- nybblet 10y agoHaha: "He developed a questionable reputation among the other members of the Mission..." Yes, I can see it, and this is very cool. Thank you very much!
- sudosteph 10y agoCan you give some examples of those "statements on women that interpreted naïvely clearly contradict other statements on mothers?" I've read bits and pieces of Analects, thought it was ok, but felt that is was very much reflective of the perspectives of the time. Most of it felt like stuff that was obvious and other stuff felt not applicable to the world today. IIRC there was some stuff about traveling abroad / being a good guest in a foreign country, and I did think that part was useful. I don't really recall reading stuff about women though. I wouldn't expect an enlightened perspective from a man in that time period though, no matter how kind the interpretation. It wouldn't invalidate the whole work, it would just show that the author was wrong about at least one thing, which is not an issue (unless we're talking about holy books where it's not acceptable to acknowledge mistakes).
- nybblet 10y agoAgreed on all counts! "The Master said: 'Girls and inferior men are hard to get along with. If you get familiar with them, they lose their humility; if you are distant, they resent it.'" (Chapter 17) This sounds pretty bad. My reading of it is that he meant that relationships between men and women are particularly tricky (bearing in mind heteronormative standards at the time, etc. etc.), so one has to be careful not to misrepresent them or else everyone suffers. This can be generously reinterpreted to general use ("don't toy around with people and treat them straightforwardly"). Realistically... I'm happy to take it as a mistake on his part and just extract something worthwhile from it even if it's not what he meant. With regard to enlightened perspective or lack thereof, there's an interesting question. I'm no expert on Confucius himself and how he regarded women, but his filial piety towards his mother is widely lauded (as was Mencius'). Hope that helps!