6 ms·

Facebook? How about the CIA/NSA/ABC intelligence organizations? We're not at war with a country, why do we need a spy agency (much less several)? Roll personal

Facebook? How about the CIA/NSA/ABC intelligence organizations? We're not at war with a country, why do we need a spy agency (much less several)? Roll personal and funding into the FBI (Note: this does not make me a fan of the FBI) so there is at least some public oversight.

samsonradu 10y ago
Not that I want to defend any intelligence organisation but war is not a binary thing. Other countries might be harming your country even without you knowing it. Agencies try to prevent that from happening.
- fwn 10y ago
  Who knows? They are certainly not going to tell. Secret services are rather secret about their services.
  - samsonradu 10y ago
    Indeed, who knows. But would it benefit the country if they released their ops reports?
    - fwn 10y ago
      Not an expert, but as secret stuff gets leaked it tends to create huge public discourse and leads to political action. Knowledge about their actions does seem to have an effect on the country. Secret service staff would probably not necessarily evaluate it as a good effect though.
      - samsonradu 10y ago
        > Knowledge about their actions does seem to have an effect on the country. Can you give me an example? Take the latest Wikileaks Vault thing for instance. That was a leak that created public discourse, what was the effect? I still don't trust my iPhone and pretty much most of the software I use, were any 3 letter agency looking to get me.
passivepinetree 10y ago
While I don't necessarily disagree with the spirit of your point, Wikipedia gives three current wars the U.S. is involved in[0]: in Northwest Pakistan, in numerous locations against ISIL, and the war in Afghanistan. You might argue that most of our foes aren't states, and you'd be right, but the fact is still that we are at war and have been continuously for over a decade. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_involving_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_involving_the_Uni...
- mathperson 10y ago
  The truly unacceptable part of this for me is that congress has quietly, and passively relinquished one of its key powers, the ability to declare war. ever since korea we have had these anemic 'use of force resolutions' that are frankly not a check on executive power in the slightest. I am not a peacenik by any means, if anything I am a hawk, particularly about russia, but I detest living in a state of forever war, undeclared and un-debated. WE HAVE BOOTS ON THE GROUND IN SYRIA and no one cares or is even aware. https://warisboring.com/the-united-states-of-forever-war-4bc0a291262f#.fq6m4wtk7 https://warisboring.com/the-united-states-of-forever-war-4bc... I understand the 'threats' that we face are complex non-state actors..but I do not think the amount of blood and treasure we invest in going abroad to find foreign monsters to slay is worth it and there is never true congressional argument on this topic.
mathperson 10y ago
this is quite silly. the cia/nsa are about attacking and investigating foreign nationals(obviously followed in the breach sometimes- see SNOWDEN) ..the fbi is required to follow american law in regards to due process. we do not extend those rights to foreign actors. I am for increased oversight of our national security apparatus but rolling in international facing organizations into domestic ones is a terrible idea. as for having these organizations even during peacetime...Si vis pacem, para bellum. If we want these capabilities to some degree, we must keep them running. You can't launch spy satellites into orbit the day after an attack on american soil...

samsonradu 10y ago

Not that I want to defend any intelligence organisation but war is not a binary thing. Other countries might be harming your country even without you knowing it. Agencies try to prevent that from happening.

fwn 10y ago
Who knows? They are certainly not going to tell. Secret services are rather secret about their services.
- samsonradu 10y ago
  Indeed, who knows. But would it benefit the country if they released their ops reports?
  - fwn 10y ago
    Not an expert, but as secret stuff gets leaked it tends to create huge public discourse and leads to political action. Knowledge about their actions does seem to have an effect on the country. Secret service staff would probably not necessarily evaluate it as a good effect though.
    - samsonradu 10y ago
      > Knowledge about their actions does seem to have an effect on the country. Can you give me an example? Take the latest Wikileaks Vault thing for instance. That was a leak that created public discourse, what was the effect? I still don't trust my iPhone and pretty much most of the software I use, were any 3 letter agency looking to get me.

passivepinetree 10y ago

While I don't necessarily disagree with the spirit of your point, Wikipedia gives three current wars the U.S. is involved in[0]: in Northwest Pakistan, in numerous locations against ISIL, and the war in Afghanistan. You might argue that most of our foes aren't states, and you'd be right, but the fact is still that we are at war and have been continuously for over a decade. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_involving_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_involving_the_Uni...

mathperson 10y ago
The truly unacceptable part of this for me is that congress has quietly, and passively relinquished one of its key powers, the ability to declare war. ever since korea we have had these anemic 'use of force resolutions' that are frankly not a check on executive power in the slightest. I am not a peacenik by any means, if anything I am a hawk, particularly about russia, but I detest living in a state of forever war, undeclared and un-debated. WE HAVE BOOTS ON THE GROUND IN SYRIA and no one cares or is even aware. https://warisboring.com/the-united-states-of-forever-war-4bc0a291262f#.fq6m4wtk7 https://warisboring.com/the-united-states-of-forever-war-4bc... I understand the 'threats' that we face are complex non-state actors..but I do not think the amount of blood and treasure we invest in going abroad to find foreign monsters to slay is worth it and there is never true congressional argument on this topic.

mathperson 10y ago

this is quite silly. the cia/nsa are about attacking and investigating foreign nationals(obviously followed in the breach sometimes- see SNOWDEN) ..the fbi is required to follow american law in regards to due process. we do not extend those rights to foreign actors. I am for increased oversight of our national security apparatus but rolling in international facing organizations into domestic ones is a terrible idea. as for having these organizations even during peacetime...Si vis pacem, para bellum. If we want these capabilities to some degree, we must keep them running. You can't launch spy satellites into orbit the day after an attack on american soil...