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Metafilter And The Russian Sex Slaves That Never Were

67 points by pdx 16y ago

alxp 16y ago
Ugh this guy has developed a very selective reading of the thread in question and refusing to accept things told to him by the people actually involved because they couldn't "prove" what they were saying. At this point for this version of what happened to be true it would require active conspiracy on the part of all involved to keep it going. Knowing when to admit you were wrong and let go is truly a blessing.
- peterwwillis 16y ago
  The line between active conspiracy and everyone just going along with something because they're easily lead or prefer to believe something a certain way is probably thinner than you imagine. Is The Bible a conspiracy? Is everyone in Christianity secretly in on it? Or are they just going along with it because they like the idea? I don't know about you, but I go for the free cookies & coffee after the service.
  - callahad 16y ago
    The situation, as presented, was sufficiently dubious as to warrant the attention of both the NYPD and the State Department. I'm willing to trust their judgment.
- Vivtek 16y ago
  Exactly. I'm happy he went to the club, because I think real-world triangulation makes this a better story. But I get the impression he expected to see women in chains right in front of him there, and when he didn't, he said, "Ha, those silly MeFites!" The fact that he really wanted to feel like it was all blown out of proportion surely had nothing to do with his rational take on it. I am rolling my eyes.
callahad 16y ago
While it's always good to critically examine information, Bingo, the author of the linked post, repeatedly adopted a combative, hyperbolic tone that only served to further derail the conversation, rather than restore moderation and critical thought. After finding few sympathizers in the Metafilter threads, he moved his critiques off-site and onto his own blog. That's all well and good, but it's worth knowing that his perception of the events represents an extreme minority amongst the site's regular readership. Suffice to say, both the NYPD and an employee of the State Department directly involved in human trafficking cases believed that the situation was sufficiently dubious to warrant intervening. If you're looking for a more moderate summary of events, Newsweek had a fairly decent overview: http://www.newsweek.com/blogs/the-human-condition/2010/05/21/exclusive-one-of-the-heroes-behind-the-metafilter-human-trafficking-rescue-speaks-out.html http://www.newsweek.com/blogs/the-human-condition/2010/05/21... If you have the time, I'd highly recommend reading the original Ask Metafilter and Metatalk threads. Both were developing concurrently, so it's best to alternate reading a few posts in each. Just watch the timestamps to stay synchronized.
- jerf 16y ago
  "Suffice to say, both the NYPD and an employee of the State Department directly involved in human trafficking cases believed that the situation was sufficiently dubious to warrant intervening." Before or after it became A Thing? If they were involved before anybody on MeFi heard about it, I'll accept that as evidence. If it occurred after, unfortunately it is completely plausible that these agencies decided they must be seen to Do Something (TM). I mean these "ifs" because I honestly don't know which is which, and am curious, because if it is established that they were interested first than that's pretty strong evidence.
  - Vivtek 16y ago
    Pollomacho is a MeFite who works at State in the human trafficking department. He was involved in the case as soon as he heard about it, and stated quite clearly that it was nice to be able to help somebody in this situation before two or three months had passed. Bingo omits this entirely, because Bingo thought it would be cool to visit this club and come back and say how histrionic MeFites were being. Now, from what Pollomacho said later, he talked to the girls and there was information he didn't feel free to share (personal in nature) that indicated very, very strongly to him that this was in fact a human trafficking case, and as he is not known to be a twit in other instances, I'm inclined to take him at his word.
WiseWeasel 16y ago
I'd say that the narrative that the women knew what they were getting themselves into, given their behavior in the original story, does seem to make more sense to me. However, that doesn't make it any less commendable that they may have been given an at least temporary reprieve from the abuse of human trafficking and prostitution. What they choose to do with it is now their decision to make.
- Vivtek 16y ago
  Oh, come on, they're like 18 years old and are going to the United States! They still think they're immortal, and even if they anticipate that there might be some sex involved, they think they'd be glamor stars. Instead, they'd be crack junkies for a couple of years, and thrown out into the alley when they were used up, and there is no way in hell that any 18-year-old - or 30-year-old - would "know what they were getting themselves into". If that were the case, this would never happen to anybody. That's the pernicious nature of human trafficking in the first place.
  - WiseWeasel 16y ago
    The post's author was implying that they may have grown up in an environment where they really did know what to expect, and I'd agree that it is a possibility, as uncomfortable as that may be to ponder. Who knows what these particular 18-year-olds were expecting; just because you may have been naive about the world's seedy underbelly at 18 doesn't mean everyone else must have been. It's easy for us to fall into a cultural narrative specific to our community, and believe that it must be the same for everyone else.
    - Vivtek 16y ago
      Sure, because Russian chicks always expect to be crack whores by the time they're 22. Right. They knew exactly what they were getting into, so you don't need to worry about it - they're only Russian, after all, where this sort of thing happens every day. WiseWeasel, the post's author is wrong. My wife is Eastern European, and I can assure you that Russian 18-year-olds are just as stupid when it comes to life risk as anybody else.
jackfoxy 16y ago
Not about this article in particular, but at a meta-level, I want to give an up-vote to the media criticism, both postings and dissections in the comments on HN; of which, this post and the comments is a good example. Some may say it clutters-up the news postings and is off topic (and they have a point). It might be good if postings could be divided into three categories, "pure" HN, media, and other general.
ErrantX 16y ago
Just for the record; I have a couple of friends in New York who also went to the club after I showed them the thread (of their own volition). Their report is pretty similar to this guys; except to conclude it is very much a place to pick up girls for sex as well. One of them is of slavic origin, can speak Russian and was at one point offered a girl (he believes because he passed as Russian - the others were not offered at any point). Once it was clear they were American and were not there after girls they were treated like it was a normal club. They point out it wasn't particularly seedy; it was upmarket but definitely "gang" owned/affiliated (these are guys I know through work; one of them works on trafficking and prostitution in his professional capacity, so it's a reasonably expert opinion). Their conclusion: that the girls were on the edge of one of the lighter "trafficking" scams, where girls voluntarily go over for short spell with the promise of work (and often the "nudge wink" suggestion that they could skip immigration and stay longer if they stay below the radar). What usually happens is they either get the job promised them, or it "falls through" (like in this case) and they get given a waitress job for the visa period at a club like this. All above board. Then when the visa is almost up it is suggested very strongly that if they wanted to stay they probably could, but not in a normal (legal) job... (note: this is all second hand information. I trust my friends experience but as with anything over the internet.. treat it as unconfirmed :))
- bradleyland 16y ago
  Probably the most balanced and rational sounding explanation I've seen yet. The problem is, it's not very exciting, so everyone ignores it.
metamemetics 16y ago
Remind anyone of this? >Dear Reddit: Yesterday a user posted soliciting donations for a users wifes cancer treatment. I (and others) claimed it was fake. I was wrong, she does have cancer and now users are harassing the family. http://en.reddit.com/r/reddit.com/comments/bup53/dear_reddit_yesterday_a_user_posted_soliciting/ http://en.reddit.com/r/reddit.com/comments/bup53/dear_reddit...
intellectronica 16y ago
Thank God there were no nazis, terrorists or pedophiles involved.
georgieporgie 16y ago
This whole thing sort of reminds me of when all those Everquest (I think) players stood around online to form a virtual flag after September 11th...

67 points by pdx 16y ago

alxp 16y ago

Ugh this guy has developed a very selective reading of the thread in question and refusing to accept things told to him by the people actually involved because they couldn't "prove" what they were saying. At this point for this version of what happened to be true it would require active conspiracy on the part of all involved to keep it going. Knowing when to admit you were wrong and let go is truly a blessing.

peterwwillis 16y ago
The line between active conspiracy and everyone just going along with something because they're easily lead or prefer to believe something a certain way is probably thinner than you imagine. Is The Bible a conspiracy? Is everyone in Christianity secretly in on it? Or are they just going along with it because they like the idea? I don't know about you, but I go for the free cookies & coffee after the service.
- callahad 16y ago
  The situation, as presented, was sufficiently dubious as to warrant the attention of both the NYPD and the State Department. I'm willing to trust their judgment.
Vivtek 16y ago
Exactly. I'm happy he went to the club, because I think real-world triangulation makes this a better story. But I get the impression he expected to see women in chains right in front of him there, and when he didn't, he said, "Ha, those silly MeFites!" The fact that he really wanted to feel like it was all blown out of proportion surely had nothing to do with his rational take on it. I am rolling my eyes.

callahad 16y ago

While it's always good to critically examine information, Bingo, the author of the linked post, repeatedly adopted a combative, hyperbolic tone that only served to further derail the conversation, rather than restore moderation and critical thought. After finding few sympathizers in the Metafilter threads, he moved his critiques off-site and onto his own blog. That's all well and good, but it's worth knowing that his perception of the events represents an extreme minority amongst the site's regular readership. Suffice to say, both the NYPD and an employee of the State Department directly involved in human trafficking cases believed that the situation was sufficiently dubious to warrant intervening. If you're looking for a more moderate summary of events, Newsweek had a fairly decent overview: http://www.newsweek.com/blogs/the-human-condition/2010/05/21/exclusive-one-of-the-heroes-behind-the-metafilter-human-trafficking-rescue-speaks-out.html http://www.newsweek.com/blogs/the-human-condition/2010/05/21... If you have the time, I'd highly recommend reading the original Ask Metafilter and Metatalk threads. Both were developing concurrently, so it's best to alternate reading a few posts in each. Just watch the timestamps to stay synchronized.

jerf 16y ago
"Suffice to say, both the NYPD and an employee of the State Department directly involved in human trafficking cases believed that the situation was sufficiently dubious to warrant intervening." Before or after it became A Thing? If they were involved before anybody on MeFi heard about it, I'll accept that as evidence. If it occurred after, unfortunately it is completely plausible that these agencies decided they must be seen to Do Something (TM). I mean these "ifs" because I honestly don't know which is which, and am curious, because if it is established that they were interested first than that's pretty strong evidence.
- Vivtek 16y ago
  Pollomacho is a MeFite who works at State in the human trafficking department. He was involved in the case as soon as he heard about it, and stated quite clearly that it was nice to be able to help somebody in this situation before two or three months had passed. Bingo omits this entirely, because Bingo thought it would be cool to visit this club and come back and say how histrionic MeFites were being. Now, from what Pollomacho said later, he talked to the girls and there was information he didn't feel free to share (personal in nature) that indicated very, very strongly to him that this was in fact a human trafficking case, and as he is not known to be a twit in other instances, I'm inclined to take him at his word.

WiseWeasel 16y ago

I'd say that the narrative that the women knew what they were getting themselves into, given their behavior in the original story, does seem to make more sense to me. However, that doesn't make it any less commendable that they may have been given an at least temporary reprieve from the abuse of human trafficking and prostitution. What they choose to do with it is now their decision to make.

Vivtek 16y ago
Oh, come on, they're like 18 years old and are going to the United States! They still think they're immortal, and even if they anticipate that there might be some sex involved, they think they'd be glamor stars. Instead, they'd be crack junkies for a couple of years, and thrown out into the alley when they were used up, and there is no way in hell that any 18-year-old - or 30-year-old - would "know what they were getting themselves into". If that were the case, this would never happen to anybody. That's the pernicious nature of human trafficking in the first place.
- WiseWeasel 16y ago
  The post's author was implying that they may have grown up in an environment where they really did know what to expect, and I'd agree that it is a possibility, as uncomfortable as that may be to ponder. Who knows what these particular 18-year-olds were expecting; just because you may have been naive about the world's seedy underbelly at 18 doesn't mean everyone else must have been. It's easy for us to fall into a cultural narrative specific to our community, and believe that it must be the same for everyone else.
  - Vivtek 16y ago
    Sure, because Russian chicks always expect to be crack whores by the time they're 22. Right. They knew exactly what they were getting into, so you don't need to worry about it - they're only Russian, after all, where this sort of thing happens every day. WiseWeasel, the post's author is wrong. My wife is Eastern European, and I can assure you that Russian 18-year-olds are just as stupid when it comes to life risk as anybody else.

jackfoxy 16y ago

Not about this article in particular, but at a meta-level, I want to give an up-vote to the media criticism, both postings and dissections in the comments on HN; of which, this post and the comments is a good example. Some may say it clutters-up the news postings and is off topic (and they have a point). It might be good if postings could be divided into three categories, "pure" HN, media, and other general.

ErrantX 16y ago

Just for the record; I have a couple of friends in New York who also went to the club after I showed them the thread (of their own volition). Their report is pretty similar to this guys; except to conclude it is very much a place to pick up girls for sex as well. One of them is of slavic origin, can speak Russian and was at one point offered a girl (he believes because he passed as Russian - the others were not offered at any point). Once it was clear they were American and were not there after girls they were treated like it was a normal club. They point out it wasn't particularly seedy; it was upmarket but definitely "gang" owned/affiliated (these are guys I know through work; one of them works on trafficking and prostitution in his professional capacity, so it's a reasonably expert opinion). Their conclusion: that the girls were on the edge of one of the lighter "trafficking" scams, where girls voluntarily go over for short spell with the promise of work (and often the "nudge wink" suggestion that they could skip immigration and stay longer if they stay below the radar). What usually happens is they either get the job promised them, or it "falls through" (like in this case) and they get given a waitress job for the visa period at a club like this. All above board. Then when the visa is almost up it is suggested very strongly that if they wanted to stay they probably could, but not in a normal (legal) job... (note: this is all second hand information. I trust my friends experience but as with anything over the internet.. treat it as unconfirmed :))

bradleyland 16y ago
Probably the most balanced and rational sounding explanation I've seen yet. The problem is, it's not very exciting, so everyone ignores it.

metamemetics 16y ago

Remind anyone of this? >Dear Reddit: Yesterday a user posted soliciting donations for a users wifes cancer treatment. I (and others) claimed it was fake. I was wrong, she does have cancer and now users are harassing the family. http://en.reddit.com/r/reddit.com/comments/bup53/dear_reddit_yesterday_a_user_posted_soliciting/ http://en.reddit.com/r/reddit.com/comments/bup53/dear_reddit...

intellectronica 16y ago

Thank God there were no nazis, terrorists or pedophiles involved.

georgieporgie 16y ago

This whole thing sort of reminds me of when all those Everquest (I think) players stood around online to form a virtual flag after September 11th...