4 ms·

I'd get one in a heartbeat if the writing interface is as good as Microsoft Surface 4 Pro/Surfacebook, the only pen interface in the history of computing that I

I'd get one in a heartbeat if the writing interface is as good as Microsoft Surface 4 Pro/Surfacebook, the only pen interface in the history of computing that I found wasn't an unusable laggy pile of shit. Seeing as it is based on Wacom technology, I'm going to assume they already failed this requirement. Also, they need to get the device price down. Anything over $200, and they already priced themselves out of the market for cheap tablet that has limited use.

kayoone 10y ago
Whats wrong with Wacom ? I have a Surface Pro 2 which afaik uses Wacom tech (i know the newer ones use Ntrig) but i find the pen input to be very responsive and nice.
- BinaryIdiot 10y ago
  I think you misunderstand parent; he / she was referring to Wacom technology as industry leading / the best.
  - codebeaker 10y ago
    I understood the parent to conclude that choosing Wacom was a failure, as Wacom tech is not as good as whatever is in the Surface 4.
- DiabloD3 10y ago
  I've off and on owned Wacom tablets. None of them were an experience I decided to keep using no matter how neat having a pen interface on a PC is. Laggy as hell to the point they're unusable to me.
  - morsch 10y ago
    Probably a driver or software issue. Can't imagine the Wacom hardware is inherently laggy.
    - DiabloD3 10y ago
      The drivers are written by Wacom, and the software isn't written by me AND the pen interfaces in major pieces of software were written for Wacom in mind (and often with input or actual code by Wacom).... And as a user, I literally don't care why it's broken, only that it's broken and I have no need for a broken experience.
jodrellblank 10y ago
Does this handwriting - http://i.imgur.com/46zsYWw.png http://i.imgur.com/46zsYWw.png - look like a device that's picking up fine, fast movements as well as paper? Or this - http://i.imgur.com/BEvjRWI.png http://i.imgur.com/BEvjRWI.png - what are those highlighted shapes? It's possibly just the chap's handwriting, but in a product video for a new product all about how it's like handwriting on paper, wouldn't it be a plan to choose someone with tidy handwriting? But I don't think it is his handwriting; in both of the bits pictured there's lots of uuuuu shapes and round o shapes are mashed or almost missing; 'Let A be ev°n uhon Z is .dd. P l o t roills OK Kincticn'. Put their video[1] in 0.25x slow motion and watch at 39 seconds, the 's' they write at the end of 'Restrictions', see it gets the start and end missed and the shape distorted. Then watch the filling in sketching movements at 40 seconds, the ink appearing lags by the entire length of the pen stroke... Yet in a couple of places, it looks like it is keeping up with writing. Where they say it's the fastest, where they zoom in on his handwriting. I want it to be paper. But ... I dunno... [1] https://youtu.be/34I27KPZM6g?t=38 https://youtu.be/34I27KPZM6g?t=38
- adamsch 10y ago
  I presume they use some sort of path prediction to make up for the laggy display. Doesn't work well for sharp corners.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- TuringTest 10y ago
  If you watch the handwriting at second 52, the lag is barely noticieable, even on slo-mo. What is happening is that a light grey shadow appears very fast, and then the ink "fills in" fluidly until achieving its final dark grey. The effect is like some "magic ink" that dries in contact with air. It's not exactly like pen and paper, but they've achieved an effect that psychologically works well for me. The Sony epad [1] seems to be right there in terms of writing speed, if we can trust either video. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrp9TxgFBdw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrp9TxgFBdw
- Foxboron 10y ago
devnonymous 10y ago
> the only pen interface in the history of computing that I found wasn't an unusable laggy pile of shit. Really? In the history of computing? IMHO, nothing today comes close to the styluses (styli?) of the palm devices or even the casio pocket viewers. It's a pity that the industry moved ahead and these companies failed to keep up. The technology as well as the UI/Ux of the palm devices were way ahead of their time.
- DiabloD3 10y ago
  Unfortunately, I never had the chance of using a Palm device of yore. Palm still has a following, as does Newtons due to how historically they solved a problem so smoothly no one since has been able to copy it. I'm willing to accept that ye olde Palms could meet my requirements of usable. I don't think the silicon valley today understands that everything must be UI/UX oriented. If your UI/UX is broken, I don't care what your product does, I don't care how much it can improve my life, I don't care what you're telling yourselves or your investors: your product is broken and unusable to most of your customers, to every customer who isn't willing to put up with the brokenness. As a customer, I don't need you, you need me.
askvictor 10y ago
Most recent stylus laptops/tablets are pretty good (following surface's lead). The corner has turned.
- BinaryIdiot 10y ago
  Hmm I wish I could remember the brand but I was playing with a Windows 10 tablet in Best Buy that had a pen, it wasn't the surface and it was no where near as good. Is there a place that shows which tablet(s) have the higher resolution, low latency styluses?
  - askvictor 10y ago
    Any stylus with a battery should be good. Recent ThinkPad yoga, HP, Acer are ones I've tested recently, and have been happy with them
timthelion 10y ago
Why should $500 be too expensive? When I was in college I payed $200 per text book sometimes. If a person makes $45 000 a year, $5 000 of which is spending money, and they spend 700 hours a year reading and taking notes, then $500 is just %10 of their spending money and pays for something that they will use during %10 of their waking hours. A far better deal than say flying to disney world, or buying a $60 video game with 30 hours of game play.
Razengan 10y ago
> Microsoft Surface 4 Pro/Surfacebook, the only pen interface in the history of computing that I found wasn't an unusable laggy pile of shit. You should try the Apple Pencil. Reviews, comparisons and anecdotes put it considerably ahead of the Surface in accuracy, latency, parallax, pressure sensitivity and tilt detection: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VMA25CqKcn8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VMA25CqKcn8 Surface Pro 4: Fails on the lowest pressure. No tilt detection at all? No wide color gamut. Bulkier device and potentially noisy/clogged fans? I also remember seeing/reading that the Surface Studio screen "ripples" under strong pressure. ---- On the iPad, in some apps like Procreate, you can even control effects like the direction of motion blur by tilting the Apple Pencil around (rotating its back end in the air) while keeping the nib on a focal point. You could also use the iPad + Pencil as a drawing tablet for native Mac or Windows apps: https://www.duetdisplay.com https://www.duetdisplay.com http://astropad.com http://astropad.com P.S. Wait till Apple's March event if you're planning to get a new tablet.
bryanrasmussen 10y ago
maybe that's not the market they want to be in. In fact I think an e-ink device is a specialty device that people who need to read a lot will have and they will pay extra for in addition to their normal tablet. I will definitely pay 500 for this.

kayoone 10y ago

Whats wrong with Wacom ? I have a Surface Pro 2 which afaik uses Wacom tech (i know the newer ones use Ntrig) but i find the pen input to be very responsive and nice.

BinaryIdiot 10y ago
I think you misunderstand parent; he / she was referring to Wacom technology as industry leading / the best.
- codebeaker 10y ago
  I understood the parent to conclude that choosing Wacom was a failure, as Wacom tech is not as good as whatever is in the Surface 4.
DiabloD3 10y ago
I've off and on owned Wacom tablets. None of them were an experience I decided to keep using no matter how neat having a pen interface on a PC is. Laggy as hell to the point they're unusable to me.
- morsch 10y ago
  Probably a driver or software issue. Can't imagine the Wacom hardware is inherently laggy.
  - DiabloD3 10y ago
    The drivers are written by Wacom, and the software isn't written by me AND the pen interfaces in major pieces of software were written for Wacom in mind (and often with input or actual code by Wacom).... And as a user, I literally don't care why it's broken, only that it's broken and I have no need for a broken experience.

jodrellblank 10y ago

Does this handwriting - http://i.imgur.com/46zsYWw.png http://i.imgur.com/46zsYWw.png - look like a device that's picking up fine, fast movements as well as paper? Or this - http://i.imgur.com/BEvjRWI.png http://i.imgur.com/BEvjRWI.png - what are those highlighted shapes? It's possibly just the chap's handwriting, but in a product video for a new product all about how it's like handwriting on paper, wouldn't it be a plan to choose someone with tidy handwriting? But I don't think it is his handwriting; in both of the bits pictured there's lots of uuuuu shapes and round o shapes are mashed or almost missing; 'Let A be ev°n uhon Z is .dd. P l o t roills OK Kincticn'. Put their video[1] in 0.25x slow motion and watch at 39 seconds, the 's' they write at the end of 'Restrictions', see it gets the start and end missed and the shape distorted. Then watch the filling in sketching movements at 40 seconds, the ink appearing lags by the entire length of the pen stroke... Yet in a couple of places, it looks like it is keeping up with writing. Where they say it's the fastest, where they zoom in on his handwriting. I want it to be paper. But ... I dunno... [1] https://youtu.be/34I27KPZM6g?t=38 https://youtu.be/34I27KPZM6g?t=38

adamsch 10y ago
I presume they use some sort of path prediction to make up for the laggy display. Doesn't work well for sharp corners.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
TuringTest 10y ago
If you watch the handwriting at second 52, the lag is barely noticieable, even on slo-mo. What is happening is that a light grey shadow appears very fast, and then the ink "fills in" fluidly until achieving its final dark grey. The effect is like some "magic ink" that dries in contact with air. It's not exactly like pen and paper, but they've achieved an effect that psychologically works well for me. The Sony epad [1] seems to be right there in terms of writing speed, if we can trust either video. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrp9TxgFBdw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrp9TxgFBdw
Foxboron 10y ago

devnonymous 10y ago

> the only pen interface in the history of computing that I found wasn't an unusable laggy pile of shit. Really? In the history of computing? IMHO, nothing today comes close to the styluses (styli?) of the palm devices or even the casio pocket viewers. It's a pity that the industry moved ahead and these companies failed to keep up. The technology as well as the UI/Ux of the palm devices were way ahead of their time.

DiabloD3 10y ago
Unfortunately, I never had the chance of using a Palm device of yore. Palm still has a following, as does Newtons due to how historically they solved a problem so smoothly no one since has been able to copy it. I'm willing to accept that ye olde Palms could meet my requirements of usable. I don't think the silicon valley today understands that everything must be UI/UX oriented. If your UI/UX is broken, I don't care what your product does, I don't care how much it can improve my life, I don't care what you're telling yourselves or your investors: your product is broken and unusable to most of your customers, to every customer who isn't willing to put up with the brokenness. As a customer, I don't need you, you need me.

askvictor 10y ago

Most recent stylus laptops/tablets are pretty good (following surface's lead). The corner has turned.

BinaryIdiot 10y ago
Hmm I wish I could remember the brand but I was playing with a Windows 10 tablet in Best Buy that had a pen, it wasn't the surface and it was no where near as good. Is there a place that shows which tablet(s) have the higher resolution, low latency styluses?
- askvictor 10y ago
  Any stylus with a battery should be good. Recent ThinkPad yoga, HP, Acer are ones I've tested recently, and have been happy with them

timthelion 10y ago

Why should $500 be too expensive? When I was in college I payed $200 per text book sometimes. If a person makes $45 000 a year, $5 000 of which is spending money, and they spend 700 hours a year reading and taking notes, then $500 is just %10 of their spending money and pays for something that they will use during %10 of their waking hours. A far better deal than say flying to disney world, or buying a $60 video game with 30 hours of game play.

Razengan 10y ago

> Microsoft Surface 4 Pro/Surfacebook, the only pen interface in the history of computing that I found wasn't an unusable laggy pile of shit. You should try the Apple Pencil. Reviews, comparisons and anecdotes put it considerably ahead of the Surface in accuracy, latency, parallax, pressure sensitivity and tilt detection: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VMA25CqKcn8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VMA25CqKcn8 Surface Pro 4: Fails on the lowest pressure. No tilt detection at all? No wide color gamut. Bulkier device and potentially noisy/clogged fans? I also remember seeing/reading that the Surface Studio screen "ripples" under strong pressure. ---- On the iPad, in some apps like Procreate, you can even control effects like the direction of motion blur by tilting the Apple Pencil around (rotating its back end in the air) while keeping the nib on a focal point. You could also use the iPad + Pencil as a drawing tablet for native Mac or Windows apps: https://www.duetdisplay.com https://www.duetdisplay.com http://astropad.com http://astropad.com P.S. Wait till Apple's March event if you're planning to get a new tablet.

bryanrasmussen 10y ago

maybe that's not the market they want to be in. In fact I think an e-ink device is a specialty device that people who need to read a lot will have and they will pay extra for in addition to their normal tablet. I will definitely pay 500 for this.