4 ms·

I get a lot of flag for saying this but it's the same reason most girls don't get into programming or math; it's no fun for them, at least not near the same rat

by notgood 10y ago

I get a lot of flag for saying this but it's the same reason most girls don't get into programming or math; it's no fun for them, at least not near the same ratio as boys; as it is observable from an early age. Just like (sadly) fighting is more fun for males so are logic puzzles; and that's fine; except now it gets framed as a discrimination issue.

jordwest 10y ago
> it's no fun for them Have you considered that maybe it's "no fun" for them because the societal expectations of what girls and boys should enjoy begin from an early age? Perhaps the forms of play that lead many to programming (eg building things with lego) aren't encouraged as much as playing with dolls. These pressures and expectations come from family and friends from the day we are born, it's the classic problem of separating nature vs nurture.
- mehaveaccount 10y ago
  Male here, legos bored me. I do computers because I like computers. My parents, working class government employees, constantly pestered me to follow them and always asked me what anyone could possibly do with math and computers besides be an accountant, actuary, or teach those subjects in highschool. But like most males I had a driving interest in computers so I couldn't be dissuaded.
  - drblast 10y ago
    My parents, 1987: "What are you going to do with that? You can't just sit in front of the computer all day for the rest of your life." Me, 2017: "How do you like me NOW?!" It's easy to forget that in the 1980's in the U.S. being obsessed with computers was not a highly regarded trait. The idea then that much of our work in the future would completely revolve around them was insanity to most people.
- flukus 10y ago
  Most people have considered this, yet most "solutions" the industry come up with kick in far too late in development.
- notgood 10y ago
  Separating nurture/nature is a dispurpose; like separating a house into bricks and pipelines, one is no good without the other. You could raise a child in isolation and see what comes up; but whatever happens the child is not going to handle too well being in any society later on. In all races/societies without exception human males are more inclined to fight wars, more inclined to suicide, why it is so hard to believe that some positive traits are also wired?
- Fjolsvith 10y ago
  Before I got my Vic-20, I had an extensive HO gauge train set. I would lay track all over the floor of the house, trying to see all the new combinations I could create. But, I never enjoyed running the trains as much as laying the track. Maybe that's why I enjoy coding so much.
- imjustsaying 10y ago
  >Have you considered that maybe it's "no fun" for them because the societal expectations of what girls and boys should enjoy begin from an early age? Do you have a link to data supporting this theory? The theory has been around for many years, I'm interested to see the new findings.
Pharylon 10y ago
My daughter is two and says her favorite colors are pink and purple. Girls aren't innately drawn to those colors but pick them disproportionately based on our society. I personally can't stand pinky princess shit. I ask for the boy toy in the Happy Meal. And yet she's picked that up. Most of what kids do is because what society instills in them as the proper thing.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
toothbrush 10y ago
I highly recommend reading "Unlocking the Clubhouse" by Jane Margolis and Allan Fisher [0]. It's a relatively short read and i found it to be an eye-opener with regards to the various factors that go into shaping our very (embarrassingly so!) gender-imbalanced field. 0. https://mitpress.mit.edu/books/unlocking-clubhouse https://mitpress.mit.edu/books/unlocking-clubhouse
abrowne 10y ago
… a lot of flak …
- notgood 10y ago
  Haha yeah; native speakers must have been confused after visualizing me receiving lots of flags.
kaitai 10y ago
Do you have any evidence to back these statements up? Asking as a female mathematician hanging out with my math gal pals for the week... just talking about how to algorithmically test some of our conjectures & drinking wine while getting snowed in...
- notgood 10y ago
  I do actually: http://psycnet.apa.org/journals/amp/60/9/950/ http://psycnet.apa.org/journals/amp/60/9/950/ (men advantage on various logic tasks) https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/03/080303120346.htm https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/03/080303120346.h... (girl advantage on language processing) So it appears gender doesn't define an absolute of interests, but it provides amplification to certain interest. So of course you can gather hundreds of women who love math, logic puzzles and D&D; which is great, but is not relevant when talking about predisposition (but about conclusion)

by notgood 10y ago

jordwest 10y ago

> it's no fun for them Have you considered that maybe it's "no fun" for them because the societal expectations of what girls and boys should enjoy begin from an early age? Perhaps the forms of play that lead many to programming (eg building things with lego) aren't encouraged as much as playing with dolls. These pressures and expectations come from family and friends from the day we are born, it's the classic problem of separating nature vs nurture.

mehaveaccount 10y ago
Male here, legos bored me. I do computers because I like computers. My parents, working class government employees, constantly pestered me to follow them and always asked me what anyone could possibly do with math and computers besides be an accountant, actuary, or teach those subjects in highschool. But like most males I had a driving interest in computers so I couldn't be dissuaded.
- drblast 10y ago
  My parents, 1987: "What are you going to do with that? You can't just sit in front of the computer all day for the rest of your life." Me, 2017: "How do you like me NOW?!" It's easy to forget that in the 1980's in the U.S. being obsessed with computers was not a highly regarded trait. The idea then that much of our work in the future would completely revolve around them was insanity to most people.
flukus 10y ago
Most people have considered this, yet most "solutions" the industry come up with kick in far too late in development.
notgood 10y ago
Separating nurture/nature is a dispurpose; like separating a house into bricks and pipelines, one is no good without the other. You could raise a child in isolation and see what comes up; but whatever happens the child is not going to handle too well being in any society later on. In all races/societies without exception human males are more inclined to fight wars, more inclined to suicide, why it is so hard to believe that some positive traits are also wired?
Fjolsvith 10y ago
Before I got my Vic-20, I had an extensive HO gauge train set. I would lay track all over the floor of the house, trying to see all the new combinations I could create. But, I never enjoyed running the trains as much as laying the track. Maybe that's why I enjoy coding so much.
imjustsaying 10y ago
>Have you considered that maybe it's "no fun" for them because the societal expectations of what girls and boys should enjoy begin from an early age? Do you have a link to data supporting this theory? The theory has been around for many years, I'm interested to see the new findings.

Pharylon 10y ago

My daughter is two and says her favorite colors are pink and purple. Girls aren't innately drawn to those colors but pick them disproportionately based on our society. I personally can't stand pinky princess shit. I ask for the boy toy in the Happy Meal. And yet she's picked that up. Most of what kids do is because what society instills in them as the proper thing.

deleted 10y ago
[deleted]

toothbrush 10y ago

I highly recommend reading "Unlocking the Clubhouse" by Jane Margolis and Allan Fisher [0]. It's a relatively short read and i found it to be an eye-opener with regards to the various factors that go into shaping our very (embarrassingly so!) gender-imbalanced field. 0. https://mitpress.mit.edu/books/unlocking-clubhouse https://mitpress.mit.edu/books/unlocking-clubhouse

abrowne 10y ago

… a lot of flak …

notgood 10y ago
Haha yeah; native speakers must have been confused after visualizing me receiving lots of flags.

kaitai 10y ago

Do you have any evidence to back these statements up? Asking as a female mathematician hanging out with my math gal pals for the week... just talking about how to algorithmically test some of our conjectures & drinking wine while getting snowed in...

notgood 10y ago
I do actually: http://psycnet.apa.org/journals/amp/60/9/950/ http://psycnet.apa.org/journals/amp/60/9/950/ (men advantage on various logic tasks) https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/03/080303120346.htm https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/03/080303120346.h... (girl advantage on language processing) So it appears gender doesn't define an absolute of interests, but it provides amplification to certain interest. So of course you can gather hundreds of women who love math, logic puzzles and D&D; which is great, but is not relevant when talking about predisposition (but about conclusion)