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> Related fallacy: there is not a standard ratio of people who should fail school tests. Fair enough, but then one could argue that law enforcement are under-u

> Related fallacy: there is not a standard ratio of people who should fail school tests. Fair enough, but then one could argue that law enforcement are under-utilizing the powers they ought to have since so many requests are sailing through without impediment.

lern_too_spel 10y ago
If the agency submitting requests are denied often, the judge would look at future requests from that agency more closely and deny at an even higher rate. You don't go to the judge with garbage for probable cause. More directly, looking at the approval rate for FISA requests without also looking at the high approval rate for search warrants is going to cause you to reach nonsensical conclusions. https://www.quora.com/How-often-are-requests-for-a-search-warrant-denied-by-a-judge https://www.quora.com/How-often-are-requests-for-a-search-wa...
- grandalf 10y ago
  > More directly, looking at the approval rate for FISA requests without also looking at the high approval rate for search warrants is going to cause you to reach nonsensical conclusions So you are arguing that search warrants are always rubber stamped? Seemingly, in a public environment where search warrants and the justification for them is public, there is great pressure on the judge and law enforcement to act properly. No such check exists in the FISA system. Think about the lax punishment of Brock Turner and all the attention it received. This is because the miscarriage of justice was public knowledge. Behind closed doors people behave badly. There are numerous examples of this, including reproducible experiments.
  - lern_too_spel 10y ago
    > So you are arguing that search warrants are always rubber stamped? No, you're arguing that FISA warrants are rubber-stamped, but if you believe that, you must also believe that search warrants are rubber-stamped, which is the "nonsensical conclusion" I alluded to earlier. > Seemingly, in a public environment where search warrants and the justification for them is public.... Search warrants and the justification for them are not guaranteed to be public and can be sealed like FISA warrants, and both can and have been unsealed following legal challenge. Therein lies part of your error. The second part of your error is that FISA warrants can only be used to search the records of non-citizen foreigners, who do not have fourth amendment rights, and people who have already been proven to be agents of a foreign power.

lern_too_spel 10y ago

If the agency submitting requests are denied often, the judge would look at future requests from that agency more closely and deny at an even higher rate. You don't go to the judge with garbage for probable cause. More directly, looking at the approval rate for FISA requests without also looking at the high approval rate for search warrants is going to cause you to reach nonsensical conclusions. https://www.quora.com/How-often-are-requests-for-a-search-warrant-denied-by-a-judge https://www.quora.com/How-often-are-requests-for-a-search-wa...

grandalf 10y ago
> More directly, looking at the approval rate for FISA requests without also looking at the high approval rate for search warrants is going to cause you to reach nonsensical conclusions So you are arguing that search warrants are always rubber stamped? Seemingly, in a public environment where search warrants and the justification for them is public, there is great pressure on the judge and law enforcement to act properly. No such check exists in the FISA system. Think about the lax punishment of Brock Turner and all the attention it received. This is because the miscarriage of justice was public knowledge. Behind closed doors people behave badly. There are numerous examples of this, including reproducible experiments.
- lern_too_spel 10y ago
  > So you are arguing that search warrants are always rubber stamped? No, you're arguing that FISA warrants are rubber-stamped, but if you believe that, you must also believe that search warrants are rubber-stamped, which is the "nonsensical conclusion" I alluded to earlier. > Seemingly, in a public environment where search warrants and the justification for them is public.... Search warrants and the justification for them are not guaranteed to be public and can be sealed like FISA warrants, and both can and have been unsealed following legal challenge. Therein lies part of your error. The second part of your error is that FISA warrants can only be used to search the records of non-citizen foreigners, who do not have fourth amendment rights, and people who have already been proven to be agents of a foreign power.