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> He did eventually realize this and sought employers who would train him I can't understand that. Modern programming is not like engineering nuclear reactors

> He did eventually realize this and sought employers who would train him I can't understand that. Modern programming is not like engineering nuclear reactors or driving mars rovers. All you need to learn is a cheap laptop, mediocre internet connection and passion to learn it. Just apt-get python/R/whatever and start writing simple things, then more and more complicated, then your own projects (make your own home automated, after all), and after a year you'll be able to find an entry-level dev job. > bought a book on Java but the life of the poor is hard, and erratic bus driving schedules coupled with living paycheck-to-paycheck makes learning programming hard, especially without a decent computer. Oh cmon. It's the same bs as "girls don't become programmers, because of males/stigma/gender-language". If you have interest in programming, you'll learn it, and won't stop at some "it's enough for resume" level. I, personally, learned C++, being in army, with night shifts, drills, living for $150 a month, just because I loved it and used every hour of my spare time to explore it.

cheez 10y ago
Let me rephrase your own statement from another perspective: "I, personally, learned C++, being in the army at 20 something years old, with night shifts (for which I had incredible energy being 20 something years old, living for $150 a month (because I didn't have any kids), etc..." I think you see where I'm going with this.
- RangerScience 10y ago
  I agree way more with you than with the parent, /but/... Those I know who're the most successful at software will train themselves, and will look for the opportunities to do that; you don't need the company to train you, you just need them to give you [pay you for] the time to learn. On the other hand, this moves it from "a small matter of work/life balance" to "a small matter of office politics"... but on the gripping hand, it does make sense that this difference in attitude is such a differentiator.
  - godmodus 10y ago
    At somepoint with a family and having other obligations... It's Not easy. Some people choose the easier Road.
  - cheez 10y ago
    Oh, I totally agree. This is why software will never be a blue collar job. It requires an absolute commitment to self-improvement that has probably no equal anywhere else.
- Swizec 10y ago
  For what it's worth, my mum had to literally limit my coding time so I didn't completely flunk out of high school due to inattention. I did have to repeat a year. These days my girlfriend limits my coding time because apparently adults are supposed to, like, be adults. I'm often late for work, where my main job is coding, because I'm solving a fun coding puzzle of my own in the morning and lose track of time. Yes, I'm weird. My point is that if you enjoy something, you'll find time to do it. If you don't, you won't. and that's okay
  - watwut 10y ago
    Responsible people don't like things less. They are just responsible enough or value families enough to do things they do not like so much for them.
- ar15saveslives 10y ago
  No, I do not see. I'm 41 now, have two kids and wife, and still work at nights, exploring python/ML stuff and writing my own OS X app for interactive plotting [shameless plug removed].
  - cheez 10y ago
    Sure! So do I. This is what is needed to survive, and not even thrive, in the software industry.
watwut 10y ago
To your last paragraph: if the girl think programming is male occupation girls are not naturaly interested in, she won't consider it nor try it. If she won't try it, there is no way for her to find out she like it or love it. I was told multiple times girls are just not good nor interested by people who knew I plan to study computer science. Had I not met teacher in school who showed me interesting parts and treated me realy equally, I would have no idea it can be potentially something for me. If you would be a guy who work in kindergaden and knit for hobby, your theories about gender not matering would hold something. You have systematically picked occupations that have no risk in feminizing you nor has "but women do it naturally better" element of.
- alexssung 10y ago
  This has to be the worst post I've read on HN so far.
  - watwut 10y ago
    Why? Guys who want to work with little children are discriminated against even more - some parents are evenjoying afraid of them. I don't think it was that bad comparison.
    - Arizhel 10y ago
      We're not talking about job discrimination here, we're talking about learning something because of personal interest. Being discriminated against in employment is a separate issue that comes later after you're actually qualified for such a job (or maybe after you've got the job). There's plenty of men, I believe, who would be interested in working with little children, but who avoid those professions because of the social stigma. It's sensible to avoid a profession if you think you're going to have a very hard time gaining employment in it, or will suffer a lot socially for it (many people seem to think such men are pedophiles). But we're talking here about people learning something out of personal interest. You don't need anyone's approval to learn programming, nor many other things. But many things do require more resources to learn; aircraft piloting for instance. You're not going to ever do that for free, though you can learn some of it with a software simulator fairly cheaply. Sailing is another that comes to mind; that's pretty impossible to learn I think without having an actual sailboat. But programming is comparatively easy; all you need is a computer and internet connection, which these days are considered cheap and ubiquitous. The software is all free; you can download absolutely everything you need, including an OS. There's an absolute plethora of websites and forums to go to to learn more (e.g. StackExchange). The barrier to entry is ridiculously low. But you do need time, and personal interest and drive. Now maybe you'll have some trouble gaining employment after you've learned it, esp. since you don't have a college degree in a related field, but that's another subject. The original article here was about someone already working in programming, who didn't bother to learn another language.
bronz 10y ago
fucking please. while in the army you have guaranteed housing and food every day. thats a fucking luxury compared to what people going through actual adversity deal with.
- ar15saveslives 10y ago
  fucking please, you don't know the story. "guaranteed housing" and "food every day", wtf are you talking about. That's funny how people with US/Canada/EU citizenship and English as first language and western culture as first culture, love to seek excuses.

cheez 10y ago

Let me rephrase your own statement from another perspective: "I, personally, learned C++, being in the army at 20 something years old, with night shifts (for which I had incredible energy being 20 something years old, living for $150 a month (because I didn't have any kids), etc..." I think you see where I'm going with this.

RangerScience 10y ago
I agree way more with you than with the parent, /but/... Those I know who're the most successful at software will train themselves, and will look for the opportunities to do that; you don't need the company to train you, you just need them to give you [pay you for] the time to learn. On the other hand, this moves it from "a small matter of work/life balance" to "a small matter of office politics"... but on the gripping hand, it does make sense that this difference in attitude is such a differentiator.
- godmodus 10y ago
  At somepoint with a family and having other obligations... It's Not easy. Some people choose the easier Road.
- cheez 10y ago
  Oh, I totally agree. This is why software will never be a blue collar job. It requires an absolute commitment to self-improvement that has probably no equal anywhere else.
Swizec 10y ago
For what it's worth, my mum had to literally limit my coding time so I didn't completely flunk out of high school due to inattention. I did have to repeat a year. These days my girlfriend limits my coding time because apparently adults are supposed to, like, be adults. I'm often late for work, where my main job is coding, because I'm solving a fun coding puzzle of my own in the morning and lose track of time. Yes, I'm weird. My point is that if you enjoy something, you'll find time to do it. If you don't, you won't. and that's okay
- watwut 10y ago
  Responsible people don't like things less. They are just responsible enough or value families enough to do things they do not like so much for them.
ar15saveslives 10y ago
No, I do not see. I'm 41 now, have two kids and wife, and still work at nights, exploring python/ML stuff and writing my own OS X app for interactive plotting [shameless plug removed].
- cheez 10y ago
  Sure! So do I. This is what is needed to survive, and not even thrive, in the software industry.

watwut 10y ago

To your last paragraph: if the girl think programming is male occupation girls are not naturaly interested in, she won't consider it nor try it. If she won't try it, there is no way for her to find out she like it or love it. I was told multiple times girls are just not good nor interested by people who knew I plan to study computer science. Had I not met teacher in school who showed me interesting parts and treated me realy equally, I would have no idea it can be potentially something for me. If you would be a guy who work in kindergaden and knit for hobby, your theories about gender not matering would hold something. You have systematically picked occupations that have no risk in feminizing you nor has "but women do it naturally better" element of.

alexssung 10y ago
This has to be the worst post I've read on HN so far.
- watwut 10y ago
  Why? Guys who want to work with little children are discriminated against even more - some parents are evenjoying afraid of them. I don't think it was that bad comparison.
  - Arizhel 10y ago
    We're not talking about job discrimination here, we're talking about learning something because of personal interest. Being discriminated against in employment is a separate issue that comes later after you're actually qualified for such a job (or maybe after you've got the job). There's plenty of men, I believe, who would be interested in working with little children, but who avoid those professions because of the social stigma. It's sensible to avoid a profession if you think you're going to have a very hard time gaining employment in it, or will suffer a lot socially for it (many people seem to think such men are pedophiles). But we're talking here about people learning something out of personal interest. You don't need anyone's approval to learn programming, nor many other things. But many things do require more resources to learn; aircraft piloting for instance. You're not going to ever do that for free, though you can learn some of it with a software simulator fairly cheaply. Sailing is another that comes to mind; that's pretty impossible to learn I think without having an actual sailboat. But programming is comparatively easy; all you need is a computer and internet connection, which these days are considered cheap and ubiquitous. The software is all free; you can download absolutely everything you need, including an OS. There's an absolute plethora of websites and forums to go to to learn more (e.g. StackExchange). The barrier to entry is ridiculously low. But you do need time, and personal interest and drive. Now maybe you'll have some trouble gaining employment after you've learned it, esp. since you don't have a college degree in a related field, but that's another subject. The original article here was about someone already working in programming, who didn't bother to learn another language.

bronz 10y ago

fucking please. while in the army you have guaranteed housing and food every day. thats a fucking luxury compared to what people going through actual adversity deal with.

ar15saveslives 10y ago
fucking please, you don't know the story. "guaranteed housing" and "food every day", wtf are you talking about. That's funny how people with US/Canada/EU citizenship and English as first language and western culture as first culture, love to seek excuses.