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Well, I am inclined to like creative destruction and open borders too. But Australia and the US are democracies -- they are ruled by the people, most of whom s

Well, I am inclined to like creative destruction and open borders too. But Australia and the US are democracies -- they are ruled by the people, most of whom seem to like a bit more orderliness. Now if the democratic process is producing something like the White Australia Policy[1] then we have cause to cry out our moral censure from the rooftops. But whatever your view on the current points system, that's just a policy debate, not a great moral issue. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Australia_policy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Australia_policy

gumby 10y ago
In fact I first left Australia (with my parents) because of the WAP, which impacted me even before I was conceived (one of my parents was neither "W" nor "A" so the "P" caused problems). I still have an (older) Aussie neighbor around the corner in Palo Alto who has told me I'm a wog.
vacri 10y ago
The WAP has been dead for more than 40 years, and 28% of the Australian population was born overseas (21% if you discount poms and kiwis). In comparison, the UK has 12% foreign-born and the US 14%. If you exclude the refugee crisis last year as a once-off, the only sizable western countries taking in more migrants per capita are Spain and Norway. As national policies go, there aren't many that have been so resoundingly reversed. The only thing that keeps the WAP alive is people that keep on referring to it, thinking it represents the current state of affairs.
- gumby 10y ago
  Yes I'm an old fart, born in the (fortunately waning) days of WAP. When I first visited the US, we landed at D.C. and drove north, because to drive south would have meant we would have to split up the family to stay in different hotels. Still, it seemed less racist than Australia. Nowadays, both have improved but I feel like the positions have reversed. Then again, I don't think America throws kids off navy ships into the water. And they have only one overseas concentration camp that I know of, and I don't think the people in America's wanted to enter the US, unlike the people AUS sticks in camps. Nobody is perfect. But really, it's astonishing how far Australia has come. Now if only the coalition could reflect that.
  - vacri 10y ago
    > Then again, I don't think America throws kids off navy ships into the water. When did Australia do that? The claim was that the refugeees threw the kids overboard in order to get a rescue, not that the navy threw them overboard themselves for a photo op. The scandal was about the government lying about refugee actions, not that the navy was drowning kids. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Children_Overboard_affair https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Children_Overboard_affair
    - bayesian_horse 10y ago
      He didn't say that exactly. On the other hand, there are persistent reports about the Australian navy letting refugee ships sink. By the way, often the only alternative to self-scuttling their ships, for the refugees, is to let their ships be turned around and maybe never reach another shore for lack of navigation skills, water or fuel. That comment certainly was a bit hyperbolic, but not that far from the actual truth.
bayesian_horse 10y ago
First, I doubt that the WAP was passed through a sufficiently democratic process as we understand it now. Second, I don't accept any non-democratic policy passed by any supposedly democratic system as democratic. No matter the majority it has been enacted by. For me, discrimination by race is by itself against the values necessary for sustained democracy, and as such, not subject to majority approval.

gumby 10y ago

In fact I first left Australia (with my parents) because of the WAP, which impacted me even before I was conceived (one of my parents was neither "W" nor "A" so the "P" caused problems). I still have an (older) Aussie neighbor around the corner in Palo Alto who has told me I'm a wog.

vacri 10y ago

The WAP has been dead for more than 40 years, and 28% of the Australian population was born overseas (21% if you discount poms and kiwis). In comparison, the UK has 12% foreign-born and the US 14%. If you exclude the refugee crisis last year as a once-off, the only sizable western countries taking in more migrants per capita are Spain and Norway. As national policies go, there aren't many that have been so resoundingly reversed. The only thing that keeps the WAP alive is people that keep on referring to it, thinking it represents the current state of affairs.

gumby 10y ago
Yes I'm an old fart, born in the (fortunately waning) days of WAP. When I first visited the US, we landed at D.C. and drove north, because to drive south would have meant we would have to split up the family to stay in different hotels. Still, it seemed less racist than Australia. Nowadays, both have improved but I feel like the positions have reversed. Then again, I don't think America throws kids off navy ships into the water. And they have only one overseas concentration camp that I know of, and I don't think the people in America's wanted to enter the US, unlike the people AUS sticks in camps. Nobody is perfect. But really, it's astonishing how far Australia has come. Now if only the coalition could reflect that.
- vacri 10y ago
  > Then again, I don't think America throws kids off navy ships into the water. When did Australia do that? The claim was that the refugeees threw the kids overboard in order to get a rescue, not that the navy threw them overboard themselves for a photo op. The scandal was about the government lying about refugee actions, not that the navy was drowning kids. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Children_Overboard_affair https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Children_Overboard_affair
  - bayesian_horse 10y ago
    He didn't say that exactly. On the other hand, there are persistent reports about the Australian navy letting refugee ships sink. By the way, often the only alternative to self-scuttling their ships, for the refugees, is to let their ships be turned around and maybe never reach another shore for lack of navigation skills, water or fuel. That comment certainly was a bit hyperbolic, but not that far from the actual truth.

bayesian_horse 10y ago

First, I doubt that the WAP was passed through a sufficiently democratic process as we understand it now. Second, I don't accept any non-democratic policy passed by any supposedly democratic system as democratic. No matter the majority it has been enacted by. For me, discrimination by race is by itself against the values necessary for sustained democracy, and as such, not subject to majority approval.