4 ms·

I think you are using semantics to avoid the deeper issue. Call it what you like: there were plenty of documented examples of anti-English speech, intimidation

I think you are using semantics to avoid the deeper issue. Call it what you like: there were plenty of documented examples of anti-English speech, intimidation and outright violence towards English people in Scotland during the Scottish referendum, and the SNP certainly didn't seem to try very hard to discourage the more wild eyed elements. Scotland's economy will be wrecked by leaving the UK as there will no longer be the massive transfers of tax revenue from England to Scotland as at present under the Barnett formula. It seems like plenty of Scots hate everything about from the UK apart from our English pounds, which they are quite happy to keep sticking their hands out for. Good luck without them!

matthewmacleod 10y ago
That is a shallow and reductive approach to a rather complex constitutional issue. I don't doubt that there was strong anti-English sentiment among some groups in Scotland in 2014. However, there are always extreme elements to any political movement - the mainstream campaigns were open and constructive, and in my opinion it's a weasel argument to complain that "nothing was done to discourage" anti-English sentiment. Now in reality, it's hard to make a solid argument conomic case for Scottish independence. The sums can work out, but it will likely mean belt-tightening until the Scottish economy develops further. But the short-term economic outcome is not the only metric by which success can be measured.
- Boothroid 10y ago
  I seem to remember plenty of noise from the SNP about how Brexit would/has unleashed racist forces, but apparently the same argument doesn't apply to Scottish independence because it's not possible to be racist towards the English.
  - matthewmacleod 10y ago
    That's perhaps a semantic argument if any is! I'm not sure I could support the view that the two referenda are directly comparable in that sense. There has been no noise from the Scottish government about 'too many English here' or anything like that - rather more along the lines of everybody being welcome in a self-determining country. Contrast that with the dog-whistle EU campaign, with the 'new border with Iraq' leaflets (https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C2XwDAEXUAE597E.jpg https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C2XwDAEXUAE597E.jpg) or the whole 'breaking point' billboard campaign (http://img.huffingtonpost.com/asset/scalefit_630_noupscale/5845ce68120000dd00eed9dc.jpeg http://img.huffingtonpost.com/asset/scalefit_630_noupscale/5...) - these are mainstream campaigns, and I didn't encounter anything even close to this yellow in the Scottish referendum. There will always be a hardcore of extreme views in any political campaign, and it's important for the mainstream to denounce this where it's out of line. But we can't take the extremes and use them as a basis for comparison in that way.
    - Boothroid 10y ago
      Yellow? Does that mean cowardly or something else? I don't see the problem with those communications - they reflect the truth! There are hundreds of thousands of economic migrants - don't tell me they are all refugees, because the evidence simply does not support this - that once in the EU are able to make their way to Calais etc. with little difficulty. These migrants come from a culture that is very different to our own and many struggle to adapt (e.g. the New Year rapes in Cologne, news of which suppressed by the German media with complicity from BBC and other international sources). Don't we have a right to be concerned about the prospect of thousands upon thousands of immigrants arriving specifically due to their background, if their culture is one that is in some parts actively hostile to our own way of life? I have to say when either side lines up to spread propaganda it's scary, and regarding Brexit the consensus and weight of propaganda was definitely coming from the establishment Remain cohort. One question that never seems to get answered by Remainers is the question of how many is too many - they are desperate to tell us about how immigration is a net benefit to the economy etc. To take this to its logical extreme, why then don't we just abolish all border controls and invite anyone to come? Because surely all immigration is a net benefit! We all know this is a ridiculous idea. With that agreed, the question is just about numbers. For some reason that's a debate the left seems to be terrified by.

matthewmacleod 10y ago

That is a shallow and reductive approach to a rather complex constitutional issue. I don't doubt that there was strong anti-English sentiment among some groups in Scotland in 2014. However, there are always extreme elements to any political movement - the mainstream campaigns were open and constructive, and in my opinion it's a weasel argument to complain that "nothing was done to discourage" anti-English sentiment. Now in reality, it's hard to make a solid argument conomic case for Scottish independence. The sums can work out, but it will likely mean belt-tightening until the Scottish economy develops further. But the short-term economic outcome is not the only metric by which success can be measured.

Boothroid 10y ago
I seem to remember plenty of noise from the SNP about how Brexit would/has unleashed racist forces, but apparently the same argument doesn't apply to Scottish independence because it's not possible to be racist towards the English.
- matthewmacleod 10y ago
  That's perhaps a semantic argument if any is! I'm not sure I could support the view that the two referenda are directly comparable in that sense. There has been no noise from the Scottish government about 'too many English here' or anything like that - rather more along the lines of everybody being welcome in a self-determining country. Contrast that with the dog-whistle EU campaign, with the 'new border with Iraq' leaflets (https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C2XwDAEXUAE597E.jpg https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C2XwDAEXUAE597E.jpg) or the whole 'breaking point' billboard campaign (http://img.huffingtonpost.com/asset/scalefit_630_noupscale/5845ce68120000dd00eed9dc.jpeg http://img.huffingtonpost.com/asset/scalefit_630_noupscale/5...) - these are mainstream campaigns, and I didn't encounter anything even close to this yellow in the Scottish referendum. There will always be a hardcore of extreme views in any political campaign, and it's important for the mainstream to denounce this where it's out of line. But we can't take the extremes and use them as a basis for comparison in that way.
  - Boothroid 10y ago
    Yellow? Does that mean cowardly or something else? I don't see the problem with those communications - they reflect the truth! There are hundreds of thousands of economic migrants - don't tell me they are all refugees, because the evidence simply does not support this - that once in the EU are able to make their way to Calais etc. with little difficulty. These migrants come from a culture that is very different to our own and many struggle to adapt (e.g. the New Year rapes in Cologne, news of which suppressed by the German media with complicity from BBC and other international sources). Don't we have a right to be concerned about the prospect of thousands upon thousands of immigrants arriving specifically due to their background, if their culture is one that is in some parts actively hostile to our own way of life? I have to say when either side lines up to spread propaganda it's scary, and regarding Brexit the consensus and weight of propaganda was definitely coming from the establishment Remain cohort. One question that never seems to get answered by Remainers is the question of how many is too many - they are desperate to tell us about how immigration is a net benefit to the economy etc. To take this to its logical extreme, why then don't we just abolish all border controls and invite anyone to come? Because surely all immigration is a net benefit! We all know this is a ridiculous idea. With that agreed, the question is just about numbers. For some reason that's a debate the left seems to be terrified by.