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Hello, please remain respectful. It's fine to disagree with the the SNP's policies, but calling them 'racist' is clearly outside the bounds of reason. To answe

Hello, please remain respectful. It's fine to disagree with the the SNP's policies, but calling them 'racist' is clearly outside the bounds of reason. To answer your specific point, my understanding is that general noise from Spain is that a Scottish application for EU membership would not be vetoed.

zigzigzag 10y ago
It isn't 'racism' technically, you're right. Perhaps more like a mild form of bigotry. You might strongly disagree, but the SNP routinely phrases independence like this: Scotland will be "fairer" if it is independent i.e. the English who keep outvoting us are nasty and "unfair" by nature. There are lots of quotes from people like Salmond and Sturgeon along those lines. What they mean is "we disagree with the dominant political viewpoint in England" but what they say is that the English are morally defective and the Scots, morally superior. That's merely irritating when it's a left wing/right wing party political campaign, as people can change their political party quite easily. When it's phrased in terms of ethnic origin, that crosses the line.
- matthewmacleod 10y ago
  I'm baffled by what form you think a separatist political argument could possibly take, in that case.
  - zigzigzag 10y ago
    There are lots of political arguments that don't involve ridiculous generalisations about entire populations. Look at Brexit; the arguments revolved around business regulation, local decision making and relieving the pressure of mass migration on social services. None of these things involved describing all Europeans as bad/unfair/etc - not even the immigration part.
Boothroid 10y ago
I think you are using semantics to avoid the deeper issue. Call it what you like: there were plenty of documented examples of anti-English speech, intimidation and outright violence towards English people in Scotland during the Scottish referendum, and the SNP certainly didn't seem to try very hard to discourage the more wild eyed elements. Scotland's economy will be wrecked by leaving the UK as there will no longer be the massive transfers of tax revenue from England to Scotland as at present under the Barnett formula. It seems like plenty of Scots hate everything about from the UK apart from our English pounds, which they are quite happy to keep sticking their hands out for. Good luck without them!
- matthewmacleod 10y ago
  That is a shallow and reductive approach to a rather complex constitutional issue. I don't doubt that there was strong anti-English sentiment among some groups in Scotland in 2014. However, there are always extreme elements to any political movement - the mainstream campaigns were open and constructive, and in my opinion it's a weasel argument to complain that "nothing was done to discourage" anti-English sentiment. Now in reality, it's hard to make a solid argument conomic case for Scottish independence. The sums can work out, but it will likely mean belt-tightening until the Scottish economy develops further. But the short-term economic outcome is not the only metric by which success can be measured.
  - Boothroid 10y ago
    I seem to remember plenty of noise from the SNP about how Brexit would/has unleashed racist forces, but apparently the same argument doesn't apply to Scottish independence because it's not possible to be racist towards the English.
    - matthewmacleod 10y ago
      That's perhaps a semantic argument if any is! I'm not sure I could support the view that the two referenda are directly comparable in that sense. There has been no noise from the Scottish government about 'too many English here' or anything like that - rather more along the lines of everybody being welcome in a self-determining country. Contrast that with the dog-whistle EU campaign, with the 'new border with Iraq' leaflets (https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C2XwDAEXUAE597E.jpg https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C2XwDAEXUAE597E.jpg) or the whole 'breaking point' billboard campaign (http://img.huffingtonpost.com/asset/scalefit_630_noupscale/5845ce68120000dd00eed9dc.jpeg http://img.huffingtonpost.com/asset/scalefit_630_noupscale/5...) - these are mainstream campaigns, and I didn't encounter anything even close to this yellow in the Scottish referendum. There will always be a hardcore of extreme views in any political campaign, and it's important for the mainstream to denounce this where it's out of line. But we can't take the extremes and use them as a basis for comparison in that way.

zigzigzag 10y ago

It isn't 'racism' technically, you're right. Perhaps more like a mild form of bigotry. You might strongly disagree, but the SNP routinely phrases independence like this: Scotland will be "fairer" if it is independent i.e. the English who keep outvoting us are nasty and "unfair" by nature. There are lots of quotes from people like Salmond and Sturgeon along those lines. What they mean is "we disagree with the dominant political viewpoint in England" but what they say is that the English are morally defective and the Scots, morally superior. That's merely irritating when it's a left wing/right wing party political campaign, as people can change their political party quite easily. When it's phrased in terms of ethnic origin, that crosses the line.

matthewmacleod 10y ago
I'm baffled by what form you think a separatist political argument could possibly take, in that case.
- zigzigzag 10y ago
  There are lots of political arguments that don't involve ridiculous generalisations about entire populations. Look at Brexit; the arguments revolved around business regulation, local decision making and relieving the pressure of mass migration on social services. None of these things involved describing all Europeans as bad/unfair/etc - not even the immigration part.

Boothroid 10y ago

I think you are using semantics to avoid the deeper issue. Call it what you like: there were plenty of documented examples of anti-English speech, intimidation and outright violence towards English people in Scotland during the Scottish referendum, and the SNP certainly didn't seem to try very hard to discourage the more wild eyed elements. Scotland's economy will be wrecked by leaving the UK as there will no longer be the massive transfers of tax revenue from England to Scotland as at present under the Barnett formula. It seems like plenty of Scots hate everything about from the UK apart from our English pounds, which they are quite happy to keep sticking their hands out for. Good luck without them!

matthewmacleod 10y ago
That is a shallow and reductive approach to a rather complex constitutional issue. I don't doubt that there was strong anti-English sentiment among some groups in Scotland in 2014. However, there are always extreme elements to any political movement - the mainstream campaigns were open and constructive, and in my opinion it's a weasel argument to complain that "nothing was done to discourage" anti-English sentiment. Now in reality, it's hard to make a solid argument conomic case for Scottish independence. The sums can work out, but it will likely mean belt-tightening until the Scottish economy develops further. But the short-term economic outcome is not the only metric by which success can be measured.
- Boothroid 10y ago
  I seem to remember plenty of noise from the SNP about how Brexit would/has unleashed racist forces, but apparently the same argument doesn't apply to Scottish independence because it's not possible to be racist towards the English.
  - matthewmacleod 10y ago
    That's perhaps a semantic argument if any is! I'm not sure I could support the view that the two referenda are directly comparable in that sense. There has been no noise from the Scottish government about 'too many English here' or anything like that - rather more along the lines of everybody being welcome in a self-determining country. Contrast that with the dog-whistle EU campaign, with the 'new border with Iraq' leaflets (https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C2XwDAEXUAE597E.jpg https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C2XwDAEXUAE597E.jpg) or the whole 'breaking point' billboard campaign (http://img.huffingtonpost.com/asset/scalefit_630_noupscale/5845ce68120000dd00eed9dc.jpeg http://img.huffingtonpost.com/asset/scalefit_630_noupscale/5...) - these are mainstream campaigns, and I didn't encounter anything even close to this yellow in the Scottish referendum. There will always be a hardcore of extreme views in any political campaign, and it's important for the mainstream to denounce this where it's out of line. But we can't take the extremes and use them as a basis for comparison in that way.