7 ms·

On the one hand, part of me thinks this is grimey, capitalistic slime-balling on the part of Uber; using psychological warfare to make a buck. And on the other

On the one hand, part of me thinks this is grimey, capitalistic slime-balling on the part of Uber; using psychological warfare to make a buck. And on the other hand, part of me thinks that trying to unionize Uber drivers is a bad move. If I wanted to make a quick buck with a side-job, Uber would be a great way for me to do that without having to trudge through the Gigs on Craigslist, etc. etc. etc. But if they unionize, it will become "just another job" and be tightly regulated, making the ability to get a quick buck nearly impossible; turning Uber into a full-fledged job with all the bureaucratic hooplah. While that would protect the fraction of workers looking to make Uber their full-time job, it would reduce the "Cowboy" nature of the job and make it hard for people to get in and get quick work.

Insanity 10y ago
I am wondering why it seems like you were downvoted? You expressed your opinion and to me, you made a fair point.
RangerScience 10y ago
This is my worry as well.
walshemj 10y ago
Why a lot of tv/film workers are freelancers but are still unionised IATSE (USA) and Prospect ex BECTU (UK)
jamesblonde 10y ago
I disagree. Here in Sweden, we actively discourage jobs that pay borderline-poverty wages. Taxi rides should not be cheap. You are buying someone else's time. That should be expensive for the middle-class.
- fennecfoxen 10y ago
  I'm going to go full-on link-to-Libertarian screed on this, so I apologise in advance, but... when regulations like this are realized, and unions protect a privileged set of existing members, the marginalized are in fact hardest hit. http://reason.com/blog/2017/03/11/think-the-sharing-economy-needs-more-reg http://reason.com/blog/2017/03/11/think-the-sharing-economy-...
  - jamesblonde 10y ago
    The facts are that the bottom 5/10/20% in Sweden are better off than in the U.S. (from measures such as life expectancy, literacy, etc). Yet, our society is structured around collective bargaining. So it disproves your claim that the marginalized are hardest hit. Society provides a net to catch those that fall off the edge. Personally, I believe a society should be judged by how it looks after their worst off. That's not libertarian, I don't know what to call it. My mother would call it being 'nice' or 'responsible'.
    - jamesblonde 10y ago
      Just to add an anecdote that reflects on Swedish society values from this weekend. The number one cultural event here is the Eurovision Song Contest within Sweden (to select the representative for the Europe-wide contest). The winner of the popular vote this year was an ex-convict who was considered 'rehabiltated' and always talked about his family. People love the way society helped him when he was down and how he rebuilt himself. It isn't a rugged individualistic notion of how he saved himself, more about how support structures enabled him to change himself: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nano_Omar https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nano_Omar
      - strictfp 10y ago
        Please don't sell our embarrassing fascination of Eurovision as something good by calling it our "number one cultural event". Makes me sad :(
        jamesblonde 10y ago
        By any objective measure, it's the most talked about/watched event in the annual calendar. Embarrassing - maybe, but it's all the kids talk about at school. Btw, I bet on Robin at 14/1 - my outsider perspective helps finding that kind of arbitrage opportunity.
    - yummyfajitas 10y ago
      While true, this is likely driven primarily by demographic factors. The US averages are dragged down by demographic groups which are common in the US, but rare in Sweden. When you correct for demographics by comparing Swedish Americans to Swedes, it turns out that all income percentiles besides the bottom 10% are better off in the US. Even the bottom 10% are not very different. https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:nA4POTBiYKYJ:economicreview2011.blogspot.com/2010/03/super-economy-in-one-picture.html+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=in https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:nA4POT... Note that countries populated by those other demographic groups also perform fairly badly. For example, Italy also tries to be "nice" or "responsible" (as you describe it), but Sicily is a very scenic (and tasty!) basket case. (I think it's not un-PC for me to talk about Sicily, since my ancestry is more Sicilian than anything else?)
- patrickaljord 10y ago
  > That should be expensive for the middle-class. So you're saying only rich people should get taxi rides? I thought Sweden supported the poor more. Also, you're aware that when the minimum wage is too high, it just means there will be more unemployment, not that everyone gets a raise. Now the debate is: are people happier with a job with a low wage or are they happier at home doing nothing? Studies show that people are more depressed at home when unemployed and have more chance to improve their condition and salary by starting at lower paid jobs doing something. But many of the supporters of high minimum wage would rather people stay at home than improve themselves starting with lower paid jobs not because it helps the poor but because it helps the high minimum wage supporters sleep better at night knowing that although more people have no jobs, at least no one is being underpaid... well... except for those not being paid at all.
  - js8 10y ago
    > So you're saying only rich people should get taxi rides? I do agree with that, best if middle class people use public transport (or worse, their own car). > I thought Sweden supported the poor more. It has nothing to do with support of the poor. In India, taxis are incredibly cheap, and there is no shortage of poor people. Poor people can drive buses and trams, too, you know. > Also, you're aware that when the minimum wage is too high, it just means there will be more unemployment No, it doesn't. It was never empirically proven that there is a connection between minimum wage and unemployment. (You are simplifying the whole economy to the labor market, but there is also demand side.)
    - patrickaljord 10y ago
      That's amazing, you're basically saying better services should be for the rich only while the poor should use lower public services while saying at the same time that you support the poor. Incredible. That's what socialism always does, pretends to help the poor but in the end only the elite benefits from it. > No, it doesn't. It was never empirically proven that there is a connection between minimum wage and unemployment. When it comes to low skill jobs, yes, increasing the minimum wage does create more unemployment as the middle class is not able to pay for them anymore, only the super rich. That's a well no fact, you can look it up.
Asooka 10y ago
The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. Plus, it's not a given that the union would kill off the short gig style of work for Uber.
cribbles 10y ago
Uber bolsters its fleets in part by offering predatory loans to drivers who are effectively indentured to work full-time with the company.[1] This is a core aspect of its growth strategy and is not incidental to its operating economics. Regardless, the ability of a company to provide transitory part-time labor should not be considered as an end in itself. A part-time worker whose earnings are subject to change at the whim of Uber's fare adjustments is even less likely to make major financial commitments than a part-time worker in a low-wage service position. This has a negative effect on the growth and security of the economy as a whole. If anything, we should encourage the transition of these contract positions into "just another jobs." Those gigs on Craigslist will be available in any case. [1] http://www.citylab.com/commute/2016/06/uber-subprime-auto-leases/485480/ http://www.citylab.com/commute/2016/06/uber-subprime-auto-le...
- HappyTypist 10y ago
  Uber's "predatory loans" work on a week to week basis, with a minimum rental period of 4 weeks. Please explain how it is predatory.
  - 24gttghh 10y ago
    Subprime leases at 50% more than the national average lease $/week. Seems pretty unethical to me; Companies lending to people who have no business borrowing money...reminds me of the 2007/08 mortgage crisis.
    - ceejayoz 10y ago
      > Subprime leases at 50% more than the national average lease $/week. I'm pretty anti-Uber, but that's not shocking given the unlimited mileage provision. My last car lease quoted additional mileage over the 10k/year at $0.21/mile, which'd add up extremely quickly as a taxi driver.
    - AnthonyMouse 10y ago
      > Subprime leases at 50% more than the national average lease $/week. Seems pretty unethical to me; Companies lending to people who have no business borrowing money...reminds me of the 2007/08 mortgage crisis. Subprime loans are expensive because they're risky. Nobody is stopping those people from taking the normal lease, except that they can't get one because they have bad credit. The problem with the mortgage crisis was that banks were making loans to people they knew would default on them and then reselling the loans as AAA loans, and insurance companies selling credit-default swaps under the same assumption. Then suddenly everyone finds out that so many of the loans are garbage that it made huge institutions insolvent. There is none of that going on here. Uber is just willing to take the risk of defaults for the benefit of having more drivers.
xg15 10y ago
> While that would protect the fraction of workers looking to make Uber their full-time job... I don't have any numbers but is that fraction actually that small?

Insanity 10y ago

I am wondering why it seems like you were downvoted? You expressed your opinion and to me, you made a fair point.

RangerScience 10y ago

This is my worry as well.

walshemj 10y ago

Why a lot of tv/film workers are freelancers but are still unionised IATSE (USA) and Prospect ex BECTU (UK)

jamesblonde 10y ago

I disagree. Here in Sweden, we actively discourage jobs that pay borderline-poverty wages. Taxi rides should not be cheap. You are buying someone else's time. That should be expensive for the middle-class.

fennecfoxen 10y ago
I'm going to go full-on link-to-Libertarian screed on this, so I apologise in advance, but... when regulations like this are realized, and unions protect a privileged set of existing members, the marginalized are in fact hardest hit. http://reason.com/blog/2017/03/11/think-the-sharing-economy-needs-more-reg http://reason.com/blog/2017/03/11/think-the-sharing-economy-...
- jamesblonde 10y ago
  The facts are that the bottom 5/10/20% in Sweden are better off than in the U.S. (from measures such as life expectancy, literacy, etc). Yet, our society is structured around collective bargaining. So it disproves your claim that the marginalized are hardest hit. Society provides a net to catch those that fall off the edge. Personally, I believe a society should be judged by how it looks after their worst off. That's not libertarian, I don't know what to call it. My mother would call it being 'nice' or 'responsible'.
  - jamesblonde 10y ago
    Just to add an anecdote that reflects on Swedish society values from this weekend. The number one cultural event here is the Eurovision Song Contest within Sweden (to select the representative for the Europe-wide contest). The winner of the popular vote this year was an ex-convict who was considered 'rehabiltated' and always talked about his family. People love the way society helped him when he was down and how he rebuilt himself. It isn't a rugged individualistic notion of how he saved himself, more about how support structures enabled him to change himself: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nano_Omar https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nano_Omar
    - strictfp 10y ago
      Please don't sell our embarrassing fascination of Eurovision as something good by calling it our "number one cultural event". Makes me sad :(
      - jamesblonde 10y ago
        By any objective measure, it's the most talked about/watched event in the annual calendar. Embarrassing - maybe, but it's all the kids talk about at school. Btw, I bet on Robin at 14/1 - my outsider perspective helps finding that kind of arbitrage opportunity.
  - yummyfajitas 10y ago
    While true, this is likely driven primarily by demographic factors. The US averages are dragged down by demographic groups which are common in the US, but rare in Sweden. When you correct for demographics by comparing Swedish Americans to Swedes, it turns out that all income percentiles besides the bottom 10% are better off in the US. Even the bottom 10% are not very different. https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:nA4POTBiYKYJ:economicreview2011.blogspot.com/2010/03/super-economy-in-one-picture.html+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=in https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:nA4POT... Note that countries populated by those other demographic groups also perform fairly badly. For example, Italy also tries to be "nice" or "responsible" (as you describe it), but Sicily is a very scenic (and tasty!) basket case. (I think it's not un-PC for me to talk about Sicily, since my ancestry is more Sicilian than anything else?)
patrickaljord 10y ago
> That should be expensive for the middle-class. So you're saying only rich people should get taxi rides? I thought Sweden supported the poor more. Also, you're aware that when the minimum wage is too high, it just means there will be more unemployment, not that everyone gets a raise. Now the debate is: are people happier with a job with a low wage or are they happier at home doing nothing? Studies show that people are more depressed at home when unemployed and have more chance to improve their condition and salary by starting at lower paid jobs doing something. But many of the supporters of high minimum wage would rather people stay at home than improve themselves starting with lower paid jobs not because it helps the poor but because it helps the high minimum wage supporters sleep better at night knowing that although more people have no jobs, at least no one is being underpaid... well... except for those not being paid at all.
- js8 10y ago
  > So you're saying only rich people should get taxi rides? I do agree with that, best if middle class people use public transport (or worse, their own car). > I thought Sweden supported the poor more. It has nothing to do with support of the poor. In India, taxis are incredibly cheap, and there is no shortage of poor people. Poor people can drive buses and trams, too, you know. > Also, you're aware that when the minimum wage is too high, it just means there will be more unemployment No, it doesn't. It was never empirically proven that there is a connection between minimum wage and unemployment. (You are simplifying the whole economy to the labor market, but there is also demand side.)
  - patrickaljord 10y ago
    That's amazing, you're basically saying better services should be for the rich only while the poor should use lower public services while saying at the same time that you support the poor. Incredible. That's what socialism always does, pretends to help the poor but in the end only the elite benefits from it. > No, it doesn't. It was never empirically proven that there is a connection between minimum wage and unemployment. When it comes to low skill jobs, yes, increasing the minimum wage does create more unemployment as the middle class is not able to pay for them anymore, only the super rich. That's a well no fact, you can look it up.

Asooka 10y ago

The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. Plus, it's not a given that the union would kill off the short gig style of work for Uber.

cribbles 10y ago

Uber bolsters its fleets in part by offering predatory loans to drivers who are effectively indentured to work full-time with the company.[1] This is a core aspect of its growth strategy and is not incidental to its operating economics. Regardless, the ability of a company to provide transitory part-time labor should not be considered as an end in itself. A part-time worker whose earnings are subject to change at the whim of Uber's fare adjustments is even less likely to make major financial commitments than a part-time worker in a low-wage service position. This has a negative effect on the growth and security of the economy as a whole. If anything, we should encourage the transition of these contract positions into "just another jobs." Those gigs on Craigslist will be available in any case. [1] http://www.citylab.com/commute/2016/06/uber-subprime-auto-leases/485480/ http://www.citylab.com/commute/2016/06/uber-subprime-auto-le...

HappyTypist 10y ago
Uber's "predatory loans" work on a week to week basis, with a minimum rental period of 4 weeks. Please explain how it is predatory.
- 24gttghh 10y ago
  Subprime leases at 50% more than the national average lease $/week. Seems pretty unethical to me; Companies lending to people who have no business borrowing money...reminds me of the 2007/08 mortgage crisis.
  - ceejayoz 10y ago
    > Subprime leases at 50% more than the national average lease $/week. I'm pretty anti-Uber, but that's not shocking given the unlimited mileage provision. My last car lease quoted additional mileage over the 10k/year at $0.21/mile, which'd add up extremely quickly as a taxi driver.
  - AnthonyMouse 10y ago
    > Subprime leases at 50% more than the national average lease $/week. Seems pretty unethical to me; Companies lending to people who have no business borrowing money...reminds me of the 2007/08 mortgage crisis. Subprime loans are expensive because they're risky. Nobody is stopping those people from taking the normal lease, except that they can't get one because they have bad credit. The problem with the mortgage crisis was that banks were making loans to people they knew would default on them and then reselling the loans as AAA loans, and insurance companies selling credit-default swaps under the same assumption. Then suddenly everyone finds out that so many of the loans are garbage that it made huge institutions insolvent. There is none of that going on here. Uber is just willing to take the risk of defaults for the benefit of having more drivers.

xg15 10y ago

> While that would protect the fraction of workers looking to make Uber their full-time job... I don't have any numbers but is that fraction actually that small?