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in the software world, the gurus have refused to build an association/certification system of meaning, citing libertarian ideas against it. Associations and ce

in the software world, the gurus have refused to build an association/certification system of meaning, citing libertarian ideas against it. Associations and certifications don't necessarily have to involve the government. Various professions in various countries have non-government certifications that are well regarded (one such example would be a Bachelors Degree). Unless you are making the arguing that libertarians are opposed to certification in general, whether the state is involved or not. In which case you've completely lost me.

pnathan 10y ago
- I'm being slightly loose with my terminology: the general libertarian notion (as expressed by a sibling comment) that "the Man Isn't Supposed To Control Us, Ever, At All" is what I'm meaning. - A Bachelor's degree is well regarded, but it is not sufficient to demonstrate competence. A working certification system demonstrates competence on the part of the certification-holder. The problem with having no government involved in these things is that inevitably someone is going to ask a software engineer to do something that's "Legal But Unethical", and the question at hand winds up being: can the person be fired for this(remember, this is the engineer's career and livelihood)? And here we find the Law being involved. Or we find that building really bad software impacts people's quality of life in measurable ways, but the market won't improve the software. Infrastructurally, this requires a coordinated effort. This specifically is why unions and the law's intruding are so entangled: companies can be extraordinarily abusive to their employees; they can also be abusive to their customers (monopolies are distrusted for this very reason). And the proper recourses here involve significant fines and/or jail time - meaningful mechanisms of discouraging misbehavior.
barry-cotter 10y ago
> Various professions in various countries have non-government certifications that are well regarded (one such example would be a Bachelors Degree). Degrees are an absolutely awful example of a non-government certification. They're given out by institutions that are almost universally state founded, run and regulated. The US probably has the most private universities as a proportion of universities of any nation and I doubt they break 30%.

pnathan 10y ago

- I'm being slightly loose with my terminology: the general libertarian notion (as expressed by a sibling comment) that "the Man Isn't Supposed To Control Us, Ever, At All" is what I'm meaning. - A Bachelor's degree is well regarded, but it is not sufficient to demonstrate competence. A working certification system demonstrates competence on the part of the certification-holder. The problem with having no government involved in these things is that inevitably someone is going to ask a software engineer to do something that's "Legal But Unethical", and the question at hand winds up being: can the person be fired for this(remember, this is the engineer's career and livelihood)? And here we find the Law being involved. Or we find that building really bad software impacts people's quality of life in measurable ways, but the market won't improve the software. Infrastructurally, this requires a coordinated effort. This specifically is why unions and the law's intruding are so entangled: companies can be extraordinarily abusive to their employees; they can also be abusive to their customers (monopolies are distrusted for this very reason). And the proper recourses here involve significant fines and/or jail time - meaningful mechanisms of discouraging misbehavior.

barry-cotter 10y ago

> Various professions in various countries have non-government certifications that are well regarded (one such example would be a Bachelors Degree). Degrees are an absolutely awful example of a non-government certification. They're given out by institutions that are almost universally state founded, run and regulated. The US probably has the most private universities as a proportion of universities of any nation and I doubt they break 30%.