11 ms·

The funny problem is that when I was 32 I heard from one recruiter "Oh, so you are still a programmer? I'm sorry, we cannot offer you sending your cv to our cli

The funny problem is that when I was 32 I heard from one recruiter "Oh, so you are still a programmer? I'm sorry, we cannot offer you sending your cv to our client. You see, we have hundreds of cvs from people of your age, and all are managers, so if you are not, then there is something wrong with you". Yea, 32 years old programmer is just too old, 32 years old surgeon is usually too young to work alone. I keep on learning, I have accumulated lots of knowledge working in different areas of programming like system administration, database administration, programming etc. I have been payed to program using over a dozen of programming languages... At interviews I still hear "oh, you know, I'd love to have experience like yours"... And I still hear "you are too old". What's more funny - people are not embarrassed saying that. Even though that's illegal where I live. Writing "we want to hire a woman/man only" is also illegal, but people still write that, and no one reacts. I'm afraid I will be totally unemployable in a couple of years, just after my 40, which will come too soon. And I don't want to get into management only position (which is also hard, as I cannot get a management job "because you haven't worked on such a position, and you are too old to start that". That's hilarious, but on the other hand that explains a couple of things like a-brand-new-hyped-technology, which is just a rewrite of what we had 20 years ago.

lobotryas 10y ago
Get into a big and mature company (think: 10k+ employees) instead of a startup or an smb. When I visit my friend at his company's San Francisco r&d building I see just as many old people as young or middle aged. Many of the older folks are very well respected due to their experience. Downside is that you'll probably be using some OOP language to make incremental changes to some ancient api call.
- pleasecalllater 10y ago
  I heard that mainly from recruiters working for huge companies, so huge, that I couldn't apply directly, as they had outsourced all the recruitment so some external companies. On the other hand I'm not from the USA, and what's worse - currently I need to have only remote job - which makes searching for a job even more hilarious.
  - lobotryas 10y ago
    Sorry to hear about your troubles, man. My only suggestion is networking. Get to know people in mailing lists/meetups/groups for the tech (languages, hw, whatever) you frequent and mention that you're looking for a remote assignment. If none of that is an option, I guess you could always try Botox :( https://newrepublic.com/article/117088/silicons-valleys-brutal-ageism https://newrepublic.com/article/117088/silicons-valleys-brut...
    - pleasecalllater 10y ago
      I hope the botox thing is a joke :)
- dottedmag 10y ago
  Are there big and mature companies which are also "remote first"? Not everyone can or wants to live in Valley.
Jean-Philipe 10y ago
Yeah they miss out on a lot of good talent. Most programmers in my team are older than 32 and they're amazing!
- blowski 10y ago
  I would be sceptical of hiring somebody that has been code monkeying for 20 years, as in still making the same mistakes they were making 20 years ago. It's a smell of somebody that doesn't warn to learn new things, and has no commitment to quality in any sense of the word. On the other hand, somebody that has deeply learned their craft and is still actively learning makes a very attractive employee. Age and number of years on the job by themselves say nothing about ability.
  - andrewflnr 10y ago
    The 20 year code monkey hypothetical is a bit of a red herring. A code monkey is... of limited use however old they are. You always prefer someone who's learning. However, someone who has been learning for 20 years is far more valuable than a curious noob. Those years on the job make a big difference in ability.
    - pleasecalllater 10y ago
      This is something that companies should pay attention to: knowledge, experience, will of learning. And that's more important than age, sex, location. However I doubt that it will change.
- beagle3 10y ago
  I worked with great 60-year old engineers, but I also worked with more than one 50 year old who had not learned much in his 25 year old career, in the sense that he was doing the same mistakes a noob would do (over and over again I assume), except he's churning code much slower, and without knowledge of modern tools (some of which are really useful and effective) Knowledge and professional experience are not properly reflected by age. Naïveté and lower expectations however usually are, which may explaing agist hiring preferences.
greenhouse_gas 10y ago
A slightly cynical explanation: Startups need cheap workers who will work long hours. And honestly, for every one Google (who legitimately needed genius level scientists), you have 10 WhatsApps (which are glorified simple CRUD apps). Now how are you going to get a guy (who sort of knows what he's doing) to work 15 hours a day for pizza? You've got to trick him "Change the world", " we're the next Google ", " you get to use any stack you want" When your a 20 year old kid, with no responsibilities and a future ahead of you, this sounds perfect. When you're 30 (and all the more so 40), you go to work to 1. Feed your family 2. If you want to "change the world", you work for a non-profit. And all the skills don't matter. Your knowledge how to save RAM? Useless. Just spin up another VM. So for the CEO of a startup, a 30 year old is simply too expensive for what he needs - a cheep code monkey. All the excuses are just that.
- fnord123 10y ago
  >Now how are you going to get a guy (who sort of knows what he's doing) to work 15 hours a day for pizza? Offer tenure? Then you don't even need the pizza.
  - pleasecalllater 10y ago
    So to be honest they should rather change job descriptions from "employee" to "slave".
    - fnord123 10y ago
      Slaves are property and cannot leave. People who willingly enter into terrible contracts are suckers, not slaves.
- brian-armstrong 10y ago
  WhatsApp is not a good example. They ran a high scale messaging service with a very lean team. There are some interesting challenges there.
  - 10y ago
xauronx 10y ago
I'm 29 and slowly being pushed into a management position. I'm about 25% code (mostly R&D) and 75% management. I feel like only just hit my peak in coding knowledge and quality. It's such a shame to take someone away from code right as they begin to produce their best stuff. It's just that I can't exactly walk away from the opportunity and money, so I have to go along with it and hope my side projects keep my sanity.
- mikekchar 10y ago
  I'm 49 and I feel like I only just hit my peak in coding knowledge and quality. I suspect I will feel the same when I'm 59 ;-) But I have a question. Why can't you exactly walk away from the opportunity and money? I have exactly walked away from it and was better off for it. Not everyone will be, no doubt, but the fact that I exist means that it is possible ;-)
  - deoxxa 10y ago
    > I'm 49 and I feel like I only just hit my peak in coding knowledge and quality. I suspect I will feel the same when I'm 59 ;-) This is very comforting to hear! I'm 27 and feel the same way. I can only hope that I keep getting better at this whole thing, and that I can keep ahold of the feeling that I am getting better at it, as you appear to have.
    - consultanturnot 10y ago
      Yeah kid. What will you do today. No snark. Keep learning.
  - rejschaap 10y ago
    Many organisations push experienced engineers into management roles. Some companies explicitly say they don't want to force this, they don't want to create a ceiling for engineers. But in my experience even those companies still do it, just less consciously. It happens by the design of their function definitions and associated salary ranges. But also by perks and status given to manangement.
btilly 10y ago
There will always be assholes and ageism. However I also started programming when I was close to 30. I'm now near 50 and I'm still programming. I have to justify what I've learned. On the other hand I actually have learned. And it doesn't take too many rounds of, "Here is what I learned from X ... and so I suggest Y" working out in spades to demonstrate my value. It is easy to work yourself into a career dead end. It is also easy to not stretch and find yourself with skills that were once great but no longer applicable. I have seen these happen to very good people. But being unemployed because you are old is far from inevitable.
- WalterBright 10y ago
  You can always start your own business writing code. Nobody else's approval is required.
nvarsj 10y ago
Where do you work? Because that's not my experience in London. Lots of experienced folk around here :).
- ff10 10y ago
  Same in Germany.
- ddalex 10y ago
  Also in London, but having worked in Portland, Or (home of software side of Chipzilla) - not a problem being over 40 in either location. I also like working with older devs - they know their shit, not succumbing to the latest piece of half-baked language that was spammed on HN as the SolutionToAllYourProblems ^TM.
ruleabidinguser 10y ago
Thats crazy rude actually.
camillomiller 10y ago
Here in Berlin I've met programmers who were hired BECAUSE they were over 40 (or 50 in one case). I think this is a very American problem. And that's why I HOPE that we stop revering the U.S. myths and trends. Europe has a much less shallow approach to the social implication of work on one's life. We should keep it in mind, and pride ourselves that we can innovate and do this whole startup thingy without parroting the broken Silicon Valley work ethic.
- mdpopescu 10y ago
  Agreed. I have yet to encounter any age-related problems in Europe and I'm 45. On the other hand, since I'm from Eastern Europe I might be cheaper - maybe they would object to a 45-year old British programmer. (I don't make Silicon Valley money.)
- jug 10y ago
  I'm happy to hear this because I've made huge experience related advancements in how I perceive programming, jumping on new trends, and so on since I became at least 30. History has a tendency to repeat itself and at some point you start to identify telltale signs, risks, and opportunities much better than when you were just hatched. And it does not (should not) need to be said how valuable such qualities can be at work.
- dexterdog 10y ago
  I wouldn't call it an American problem. I would call it a Silicon Valley problem.
  - badsock 10y ago
    It's an American problem where some aspects are more obvious in SV. The attitudes that the US has towards employment is much more "kill or be killed" than most other developed countries, with very little recognition that it's a human being with non-economically quantifiable needs and value who's doing the work. Part of that is that wisdom (as opposed to CV bullet points) is hard to quantify.
WalterBright 10y ago
"Logan's Run" is more prophetic than I thought!
bandrami 10y ago
Come over to the ops side. We geezers still get respect here.
- falcolas 10y ago
  Until they throw you on the pager after years off it, and wonder why you might mind. Sorry, still a bit bitter.
Udo 10y ago
I wish I could upvote this more than once. I'm a 40+ years old life-long programmer with some academic science background, and it's not possible for me to actually get a job. A few years back I thought I'd try to get a full time position, to no avail. The only work that happens for me is freelance work with clients who already know me. It's not an uncomfortable life, but there's also a very distinct ceiling I'm always aware of. I was instrumental, and often also the de-facto project lead, in launching several multi-million websites and other software, but as a freelancer I'm not really benefitting from these successes. In most cases I can't even legally advertise it. I'm stuck at a medium income level that I feel could dry up very quickly if bad luck strikes. The job market appears saturated with programmers, and to make matters worse for everyone involved, companies lack the tools and the will to even select applicants properly - I suspect this is partly due to the fact that programming is considered such a low-value skill. At times it feels like it's the corporate equivalent of working as a burger flipper. It's not really considered a dignified position to be in when you're 30. Yet, perversely, the world is built on software. There is a fundamental misunderstanding - even inside tech companies and SV startups - what the nature of programming-as-a-profession is. In my opinion it should not be some menial work that should only be performed by unskilled youth looking to advance to a "real" job as soon as possible. It's a skilled trade that takes time to develop.
- NoGravitas 10y ago
  Are you in the US? Maybe look into the public sector. State government, e.g., perhaps in a state without a high concentration of tech industry. There's a definite ceiling in terms of pay if you want to stay technical, but I've found it very easy to get hired, and the hours and benefits offer a lot of stability, if that's what you value.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
  - thenewwazoo 10y ago
    This used to be true, but the right's assault on the public sector since Reagan, during Bush, and now especially with Trump, has made this idea archaic. Many states have been maintaining hiring freezes for years and raises do not keep up with cost of living. Pensions are constantly under attack, and 457s are often hobbled because of those same pensions. You work with a constant target on your back. Your bosses have no political capital to defend you in the media, if they aren't marching in lockstep with the demagogues running the budgeting process who are calling your work "government waste", etc. The list goes on.
9821718291 10y ago
My all time favorite take on this silly "issue": https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3367465 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3367465
scarface74 10y ago
I'm in my early 40s, live in a major metropolitan area and when I look for a job as a full stack c# developer, I have companies falling over themselves for me. I am not even that strong with the latest whiz bang JavaScript framework of the week but I can architect anything with my chosen stack and I know what I know on a very deep level.
pinaceae 10y ago
Don't be afraid - lots of serious companies hire older coders. Those roles carry various titles - Principals, Architects, etc., but basically it is the non-management track. In my team it's architects, senior programmers in both age and skill. Use them for code reviews, query tuning, investigating infrastructure/code improvements, etc. Invaluable help, true multipliers.
JimboOmega 10y ago
Management is such a weird thing since nobody wants to hire you for it if you've never done it. But it feels like if you've done it once, you're on that track automatically. I'd gladly head that way. Pure software engineering is gradually becoming less interesting to me over the course of my career - the people problems are the ones I like. However... I'm older than you and have never gotten a "you're too old" vibe from anyone. In fact, if I have a complaint it's the opposite, it's that some companies want to treat me the same as someone 10 years younger - i.e. they don't see much difference between 2 and 10 years of experience, and you're a "Software Engineer" either way.
true_religion 10y ago
> Yea, 32 years old programmer is just too old, 32 years old surgeon is usually too young to work alone. Wait, how are you supposed to be a senior level developer without at least 10 years experience?
ionised 10y ago
Don't put your age on your CV. It's irrelevant.

lobotryas 10y ago

Get into a big and mature company (think: 10k+ employees) instead of a startup or an smb. When I visit my friend at his company's San Francisco r&d building I see just as many old people as young or middle aged. Many of the older folks are very well respected due to their experience. Downside is that you'll probably be using some OOP language to make incremental changes to some ancient api call.

pleasecalllater 10y ago
I heard that mainly from recruiters working for huge companies, so huge, that I couldn't apply directly, as they had outsourced all the recruitment so some external companies. On the other hand I'm not from the USA, and what's worse - currently I need to have only remote job - which makes searching for a job even more hilarious.
- lobotryas 10y ago
  Sorry to hear about your troubles, man. My only suggestion is networking. Get to know people in mailing lists/meetups/groups for the tech (languages, hw, whatever) you frequent and mention that you're looking for a remote assignment. If none of that is an option, I guess you could always try Botox :( https://newrepublic.com/article/117088/silicons-valleys-brutal-ageism https://newrepublic.com/article/117088/silicons-valleys-brut...
  - pleasecalllater 10y ago
    I hope the botox thing is a joke :)
dottedmag 10y ago
Are there big and mature companies which are also "remote first"? Not everyone can or wants to live in Valley.

Jean-Philipe 10y ago

Yeah they miss out on a lot of good talent. Most programmers in my team are older than 32 and they're amazing!

blowski 10y ago
I would be sceptical of hiring somebody that has been code monkeying for 20 years, as in still making the same mistakes they were making 20 years ago. It's a smell of somebody that doesn't warn to learn new things, and has no commitment to quality in any sense of the word. On the other hand, somebody that has deeply learned their craft and is still actively learning makes a very attractive employee. Age and number of years on the job by themselves say nothing about ability.
- andrewflnr 10y ago
  The 20 year code monkey hypothetical is a bit of a red herring. A code monkey is... of limited use however old they are. You always prefer someone who's learning. However, someone who has been learning for 20 years is far more valuable than a curious noob. Those years on the job make a big difference in ability.
  - pleasecalllater 10y ago
    This is something that companies should pay attention to: knowledge, experience, will of learning. And that's more important than age, sex, location. However I doubt that it will change.
beagle3 10y ago
I worked with great 60-year old engineers, but I also worked with more than one 50 year old who had not learned much in his 25 year old career, in the sense that he was doing the same mistakes a noob would do (over and over again I assume), except he's churning code much slower, and without knowledge of modern tools (some of which are really useful and effective) Knowledge and professional experience are not properly reflected by age. Naïveté and lower expectations however usually are, which may explaing agist hiring preferences.

greenhouse_gas 10y ago

A slightly cynical explanation: Startups need cheap workers who will work long hours. And honestly, for every one Google (who legitimately needed genius level scientists), you have 10 WhatsApps (which are glorified simple CRUD apps). Now how are you going to get a guy (who sort of knows what he's doing) to work 15 hours a day for pizza? You've got to trick him "Change the world", " we're the next Google ", " you get to use any stack you want" When your a 20 year old kid, with no responsibilities and a future ahead of you, this sounds perfect. When you're 30 (and all the more so 40), you go to work to 1. Feed your family 2. If you want to "change the world", you work for a non-profit. And all the skills don't matter. Your knowledge how to save RAM? Useless. Just spin up another VM. So for the CEO of a startup, a 30 year old is simply too expensive for what he needs - a cheep code monkey. All the excuses are just that.

fnord123 10y ago
>Now how are you going to get a guy (who sort of knows what he's doing) to work 15 hours a day for pizza? Offer tenure? Then you don't even need the pizza.
- pleasecalllater 10y ago
  So to be honest they should rather change job descriptions from "employee" to "slave".
  - fnord123 10y ago
    Slaves are property and cannot leave. People who willingly enter into terrible contracts are suckers, not slaves.
brian-armstrong 10y ago
WhatsApp is not a good example. They ran a high scale messaging service with a very lean team. There are some interesting challenges there.
- 10y ago

xauronx 10y ago

I'm 29 and slowly being pushed into a management position. I'm about 25% code (mostly R&D) and 75% management. I feel like only just hit my peak in coding knowledge and quality. It's such a shame to take someone away from code right as they begin to produce their best stuff. It's just that I can't exactly walk away from the opportunity and money, so I have to go along with it and hope my side projects keep my sanity.

mikekchar 10y ago
I'm 49 and I feel like I only just hit my peak in coding knowledge and quality. I suspect I will feel the same when I'm 59 ;-) But I have a question. Why can't you exactly walk away from the opportunity and money? I have exactly walked away from it and was better off for it. Not everyone will be, no doubt, but the fact that I exist means that it is possible ;-)
- deoxxa 10y ago
  > I'm 49 and I feel like I only just hit my peak in coding knowledge and quality. I suspect I will feel the same when I'm 59 ;-) This is very comforting to hear! I'm 27 and feel the same way. I can only hope that I keep getting better at this whole thing, and that I can keep ahold of the feeling that I am getting better at it, as you appear to have.
  - consultanturnot 10y ago
    Yeah kid. What will you do today. No snark. Keep learning.
- rejschaap 10y ago
  Many organisations push experienced engineers into management roles. Some companies explicitly say they don't want to force this, they don't want to create a ceiling for engineers. But in my experience even those companies still do it, just less consciously. It happens by the design of their function definitions and associated salary ranges. But also by perks and status given to manangement.

btilly 10y ago

There will always be assholes and ageism. However I also started programming when I was close to 30. I'm now near 50 and I'm still programming. I have to justify what I've learned. On the other hand I actually have learned. And it doesn't take too many rounds of, "Here is what I learned from X ... and so I suggest Y" working out in spades to demonstrate my value. It is easy to work yourself into a career dead end. It is also easy to not stretch and find yourself with skills that were once great but no longer applicable. I have seen these happen to very good people. But being unemployed because you are old is far from inevitable.

WalterBright 10y ago
You can always start your own business writing code. Nobody else's approval is required.

nvarsj 10y ago

Where do you work? Because that's not my experience in London. Lots of experienced folk around here :).

ff10 10y ago
Same in Germany.
ddalex 10y ago
Also in London, but having worked in Portland, Or (home of software side of Chipzilla) - not a problem being over 40 in either location. I also like working with older devs - they know their shit, not succumbing to the latest piece of half-baked language that was spammed on HN as the SolutionToAllYourProblems ^TM.

ruleabidinguser 10y ago

Thats crazy rude actually.

camillomiller 10y ago

Here in Berlin I've met programmers who were hired BECAUSE they were over 40 (or 50 in one case). I think this is a very American problem. And that's why I HOPE that we stop revering the U.S. myths and trends. Europe has a much less shallow approach to the social implication of work on one's life. We should keep it in mind, and pride ourselves that we can innovate and do this whole startup thingy without parroting the broken Silicon Valley work ethic.

mdpopescu 10y ago
Agreed. I have yet to encounter any age-related problems in Europe and I'm 45. On the other hand, since I'm from Eastern Europe I might be cheaper - maybe they would object to a 45-year old British programmer. (I don't make Silicon Valley money.)
jug 10y ago
I'm happy to hear this because I've made huge experience related advancements in how I perceive programming, jumping on new trends, and so on since I became at least 30. History has a tendency to repeat itself and at some point you start to identify telltale signs, risks, and opportunities much better than when you were just hatched. And it does not (should not) need to be said how valuable such qualities can be at work.
dexterdog 10y ago
I wouldn't call it an American problem. I would call it a Silicon Valley problem.
- badsock 10y ago
  It's an American problem where some aspects are more obvious in SV. The attitudes that the US has towards employment is much more "kill or be killed" than most other developed countries, with very little recognition that it's a human being with non-economically quantifiable needs and value who's doing the work. Part of that is that wisdom (as opposed to CV bullet points) is hard to quantify.

WalterBright 10y ago

"Logan's Run" is more prophetic than I thought!

bandrami 10y ago

Come over to the ops side. We geezers still get respect here.

falcolas 10y ago
Until they throw you on the pager after years off it, and wonder why you might mind. Sorry, still a bit bitter.

Udo 10y ago

I wish I could upvote this more than once. I'm a 40+ years old life-long programmer with some academic science background, and it's not possible for me to actually get a job. A few years back I thought I'd try to get a full time position, to no avail. The only work that happens for me is freelance work with clients who already know me. It's not an uncomfortable life, but there's also a very distinct ceiling I'm always aware of. I was instrumental, and often also the de-facto project lead, in launching several multi-million websites and other software, but as a freelancer I'm not really benefitting from these successes. In most cases I can't even legally advertise it. I'm stuck at a medium income level that I feel could dry up very quickly if bad luck strikes. The job market appears saturated with programmers, and to make matters worse for everyone involved, companies lack the tools and the will to even select applicants properly - I suspect this is partly due to the fact that programming is considered such a low-value skill. At times it feels like it's the corporate equivalent of working as a burger flipper. It's not really considered a dignified position to be in when you're 30. Yet, perversely, the world is built on software. There is a fundamental misunderstanding - even inside tech companies and SV startups - what the nature of programming-as-a-profession is. In my opinion it should not be some menial work that should only be performed by unskilled youth looking to advance to a "real" job as soon as possible. It's a skilled trade that takes time to develop.

NoGravitas 10y ago
Are you in the US? Maybe look into the public sector. State government, e.g., perhaps in a state without a high concentration of tech industry. There's a definite ceiling in terms of pay if you want to stay technical, but I've found it very easy to get hired, and the hours and benefits offer a lot of stability, if that's what you value.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- thenewwazoo 10y ago
  This used to be true, but the right's assault on the public sector since Reagan, during Bush, and now especially with Trump, has made this idea archaic. Many states have been maintaining hiring freezes for years and raises do not keep up with cost of living. Pensions are constantly under attack, and 457s are often hobbled because of those same pensions. You work with a constant target on your back. Your bosses have no political capital to defend you in the media, if they aren't marching in lockstep with the demagogues running the budgeting process who are calling your work "government waste", etc. The list goes on.

9821718291 10y ago

My all time favorite take on this silly "issue": https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3367465 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3367465

scarface74 10y ago

I'm in my early 40s, live in a major metropolitan area and when I look for a job as a full stack c# developer, I have companies falling over themselves for me. I am not even that strong with the latest whiz bang JavaScript framework of the week but I can architect anything with my chosen stack and I know what I know on a very deep level.

pinaceae 10y ago

Don't be afraid - lots of serious companies hire older coders. Those roles carry various titles - Principals, Architects, etc., but basically it is the non-management track. In my team it's architects, senior programmers in both age and skill. Use them for code reviews, query tuning, investigating infrastructure/code improvements, etc. Invaluable help, true multipliers.

JimboOmega 10y ago

Management is such a weird thing since nobody wants to hire you for it if you've never done it. But it feels like if you've done it once, you're on that track automatically. I'd gladly head that way. Pure software engineering is gradually becoming less interesting to me over the course of my career - the people problems are the ones I like. However... I'm older than you and have never gotten a "you're too old" vibe from anyone. In fact, if I have a complaint it's the opposite, it's that some companies want to treat me the same as someone 10 years younger - i.e. they don't see much difference between 2 and 10 years of experience, and you're a "Software Engineer" either way.

true_religion 10y ago

> Yea, 32 years old programmer is just too old, 32 years old surgeon is usually too young to work alone. Wait, how are you supposed to be a senior level developer without at least 10 years experience?

ionised 10y ago

Don't put your age on your CV. It's irrelevant.