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Nobody is trying to convince you of anything. Some people value time more than money. Living in the burbs requires a car, sitting in traffic, etc. That's not wo

Nobody is trying to convince you of anything. Some people value time more than money. Living in the burbs requires a car, sitting in traffic, etc. That's not worth it for a lot of people. I can walk outside my door and have access to 10 times the things the average suburbian does. That makes it worth it.

int_19h 10y ago
> Living in the burbs requires a car, sitting in traffic, etc. FWIW, this isn't always true. I live in the suburbs about 30 miles from work, and it takes about as much time for me to drive there as it does for my friends who live 3x closer, but in the city. They get all the traffic; I can literally just set cruise control at speed limit, and coast 20 miles out of those 30 on a wide open freeway.
- umanwizard 10y ago
  If your friends need a car for their daily commutes then they probably don't live in what I would consider a "city".
  - mantas 10y ago
    Then you'd probably not consider most of what is cities a city. I live in >500k fully walkable european city with okay-ish public transit. During peak times, it's ~30 minutes to get to downtown by both public transit and car. But most of offices are located outside of downtown(=oldtown) area. One office area is 30min+ by public transit (and requires a transfer or long walk) or 10min by car, even during peak times. Office park on another side of the city would be well over 1h by public transit, but 30min by car. There're locations that take 3x longer by public transit and/or require elaborate transfer plan than driving. Difference gets even bigger if you can start a wee earlier/later.
  - int_19h 10y ago
    That would be Seattle. And do account for the relatively shitty public transit infrastructure that is the norm here in US. And you seem to be assuming that the offices are also right there in the city. That's not the case for many people.
  - hueving 10y ago
    That's a no true scotsman argument. What the OP described matches almost every metro area of the US (except maybe Manhattan). So by your definition there are basically no cities in the US, which is pointless for this discussion.
    - umanwizard 10y ago
      Really? I lived in Seattle and didn't need a car for daily use. I also highly suspect you don't need one in Chicago, Washington DC, maybe Philly and Pittsburgh. And you definitely don't need one in most parts of NYC, not just Manhattan (I know plenty of people who live in Queens and commute by train).
      - int_19h 10y ago
        I didn't say that you need a car to live in Seattle. I said that commute times are not necessarily shorter. Besides, where did you work when you lived in Seattle? Plenty of people live in the city, but work across the lake in one of the offices in Eastside (Microsoft in Bellevue, Redmond or Samammish, Google in Kirkland etc). You don't need a car in a sense that you can take a bus, or the private connector shuttle if your employer provides one. But they sit in the same traffic jams on the roads, so it's not really saving you any time (although you do get the benefit of reading or doing something else while waiting).
  - ghaff 10y ago
    A huge number of jobs are not in the urban cores of cities so those who live in cities need to drive to them.

int_19h 10y ago

> Living in the burbs requires a car, sitting in traffic, etc. FWIW, this isn't always true. I live in the suburbs about 30 miles from work, and it takes about as much time for me to drive there as it does for my friends who live 3x closer, but in the city. They get all the traffic; I can literally just set cruise control at speed limit, and coast 20 miles out of those 30 on a wide open freeway.

umanwizard 10y ago
If your friends need a car for their daily commutes then they probably don't live in what I would consider a "city".
- mantas 10y ago
  Then you'd probably not consider most of what is cities a city. I live in >500k fully walkable european city with okay-ish public transit. During peak times, it's ~30 minutes to get to downtown by both public transit and car. But most of offices are located outside of downtown(=oldtown) area. One office area is 30min+ by public transit (and requires a transfer or long walk) or 10min by car, even during peak times. Office park on another side of the city would be well over 1h by public transit, but 30min by car. There're locations that take 3x longer by public transit and/or require elaborate transfer plan than driving. Difference gets even bigger if you can start a wee earlier/later.
- int_19h 10y ago
  That would be Seattle. And do account for the relatively shitty public transit infrastructure that is the norm here in US. And you seem to be assuming that the offices are also right there in the city. That's not the case for many people.
- hueving 10y ago
  That's a no true scotsman argument. What the OP described matches almost every metro area of the US (except maybe Manhattan). So by your definition there are basically no cities in the US, which is pointless for this discussion.
  - umanwizard 10y ago
    Really? I lived in Seattle and didn't need a car for daily use. I also highly suspect you don't need one in Chicago, Washington DC, maybe Philly and Pittsburgh. And you definitely don't need one in most parts of NYC, not just Manhattan (I know plenty of people who live in Queens and commute by train).
    - int_19h 10y ago
      I didn't say that you need a car to live in Seattle. I said that commute times are not necessarily shorter. Besides, where did you work when you lived in Seattle? Plenty of people live in the city, but work across the lake in one of the offices in Eastside (Microsoft in Bellevue, Redmond or Samammish, Google in Kirkland etc). You don't need a car in a sense that you can take a bus, or the private connector shuttle if your employer provides one. But they sit in the same traffic jams on the roads, so it's not really saving you any time (although you do get the benefit of reading or doing something else while waiting).
- ghaff 10y ago
  A huge number of jobs are not in the urban cores of cities so those who live in cities need to drive to them.