7 ms·

That's a bit much. People who go and yell shit in front of a camera, yeah, that's nothing to celebrate. However, random individuals coming together, learning ne

by Vexs 10y ago

That's a bit much. People who go and yell shit in front of a camera, yeah, that's nothing to celebrate. However, random individuals coming together, learning new things, and working towards a common goal that harms pretty much nobody at all except the ego of an actor is something that should be celebrated. Plus, the techniques used are kind of neat. Think to yourself, if this was a nazi flag, would you feel the same way? Furthermore, it's a bit ironic that you bring up an attempt to shut down free speech, when that's exactly what shia did when people started supporting trump on his opposition feed. Freedom of speech is freedom of speech from the government, not individuals, so he's perfectly in his right to do that, but still. And yes, stealing the flag is theft. I can't support or argue for that, but again, would you feel the same if it was a nazi flag? I don't support trump, but calling this endeavor disgusting is disheartening.

JamilD 10y ago
You can choose to regulate speech on your own property or site (just like HN does). You cannot vandalize someone else's property and infringe on their rights because you don't like what they say. There's no equivalence between the two.
- tscs37 10y ago
  I don't think this stems from not liking what they had to say, rather doing it just because it's something that can be done.
  - derrickdirge 10y ago
    That's giving them the benefit of the doubt, to say the least.
    - smhost 10y ago
      It's the insanity defense for lacking human decency. Pretty hilarious, in a morbid kind of way.
    - Gargoyle 10y ago
      98 people have upvoted this story at this point. Part of an "intimidation campaign to silence free speech" or some people just think it was an interesting activity? Is it possible some/many/most of the people who actually participated in the activity also just found it interesting to do?
gech 10y ago
>random individuals coming together, learning new things, and working >towards a common goal You gotta be kidding me
accountface 10y ago
This is the most mind-bendingly deluded post I've seen on HN in a while. > individuals coming together, learning new things, and working towards a common goal the common goal here is being an asshole > if this was a nazi flag, would you feel the same way? Shia's flag said "he will not divide us" it was a message of unity that someone took down to replace with the representation of an administration with actual white nationalists as advisors. > it's a bit ironic that you bring up an attempt to shut down free speech, when that's exactly what shia did Yelling into someone's livefeed is free speech in a public place, but continuing to follow them and ultimately trespassing onto private property is harassment. Free speech isn't yelling whatever you want whenever you want. It's freedom from the government oppressing your speech. >would you feel the same if it was a nazi flag? This again? Seriously. Here's a challenge for you in the future: try to make a sound argument without simply throwing the word "nazi" in.
- hex12648430 10y ago
  >Shia's flag said "he will not divide us" it was a message of unity Unity that excludes almost half of the US population. I'm glad that people reacted against the passive-aggresiveness of this message when the stream was hosted in a public space. I don't condone stealing on a private property but let's not fool ourselves here, the message of this art project is reinforcing the US vs THEM mentality that is currently tearing Americans apart rather than truly trying to unify people.
  - hackuser 10y ago
    > excludes almost half of the US population It does not. They are free and encouraged to join in (AFAIK). Those who embrace racial and religious discrimination, of course, might not choose the join, as the message contradicts their beliefs. But that is an old issue and red herring, the paradox of tolerance. Tolerate everyone but the intolerant, who are parasites on the social contract of tolerance.
    - mohanmcgeek 10y ago
      "he will not divide us" means that you're saying he's trying to divide you. So, you're making a claim about someone without backing it, and when people actually show up in support of him, you switch off the camera to preserve the narrative?
mcphage 10y ago
You seem to have missed the fact that it wasn't a Nazi flag.
Houshalter 10y ago
Oh good grief. These are the same people that were up in arms a few years ago when the use of the confederate flag was in the news. It's hypocritical to say the least. And yes, I would feel the same way if someone did it to a Nazi flag or a confederate flag. I don't actually care that much about the specific political ideologies. But the increased tribalism and decreased tolerance for freedom of opinion is terrifying. It is disgusting and we shouldn't be celebrating it.
- euyyn 10y ago
  > These are the same people Not sure you're understanding completely how an anonymous internet community works.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
anigbrowl 10y ago
Think to yourself, if this was a nazi flag, would you feel the same way? That's basically what the Pepe flag stands for at this point, as I suspect you are already aware.
- jimmies 10y ago
  Why is Pepe a nazi symbol?
  - Nadya 10y ago
    Because it became /r/The_Donald's de facto mascot and /r/The_Donald are all alt-right neo-nazis of course and the ADL classified it as antisemitic. Ignoring the very disclaimer they add that "not all Pepe images are symbols of hate speech". Nevermind that outside of political circles and people who take The Internet way too seriously, Pepe is just a stupid meme that has transformed from "Sad Frog" to "Woznak's friend" to "Betrayer of Woznak" to "Smug Frog/Pepe" to "Rare Pepe". And due to its prevalence in Chan Culture became a stupid meme to tell Channers from Normies (REEEEEEE) with the red Pepe with the wavy tongue. Honestly that meme has transformed quite a bit over the years. I'm convinced anyone who thinks Pepe is a symbol of the alt-right has no idea that The Internet has its own cultures and subcultures. It just so happens that 4chan and /r/The_Donald have a huge cross-section of users. No surprise that many 4chan memes are prominent there. The worst defense I've seen are images of Pepe shopped to be Hitler/a Nazi. FFS, you can find the same for Mickey Mouse and Hello Kitty - or nearly anything actually. Shopping something into Hitler is common. Makes me think if /r/The_Donald chose a Gay Pride or LGBT Flag as their "official flag" if it would cause people to second guess if someone supports LGBT or is an alt-right neo-nazi sympathizer. Talk about extremism. E: Just noticed your name and I feel you weren't asking your question seriously, but have a serious answer anyway, Mr. Jimmy Rustles
    - jimmies 10y ago
      My nickname suggests that I am a 4chinner (which is true), but the question above was legitimate and was with the best intention. The moment that Hillary went nuclear with the stupid, harmless frog was the moment that I questioned the things "progressive" people label people who don't agree with them. As silly as it was, it was truly the turning point of me re-examining what I read and listen to with a more skeptical approach. Thanks for the answer - it really unrustled my jimmies.
kordless 10y ago
Rationally, entities have choice. Any time an entity or an aggregate removes choice from an entity, by way of disrupting that entities communications, it is removal of choice for entity to speak freely. You remove choice from Shia when you attempt to indicate the irony in him "shutting down free speech" on his feed. In fact, given it is his communications channel, his right to limit anything disrupting that channel is well within his right, as entities have rational choice to speak their mind. Irrational choice is where logical arguments paralyze trusted communication. Your post, for example, does this here, by saying "but still", indicating disapproval of his actions. Further, you remove choice from the parent's post about their emotion of disgust. I find it disgusting people will continue to rationalize altering communication's trust in an effort to win an argument.
chatterbeak 10y ago
I'm left-leaning, but this was a "hack"--at worst a petty crime--not some evil action. Mr. LeBeouf proposed a challenge, and was defeated. It's also a good lesson on how hard it is to be anonymous. I got a good chuckle out of this, even if I'd rather not hear from the "frog" people!
pizza 10y ago
I'm not so sure this particular example of collective aggression for the sake of silencing someone's project is harmless or inspirational. It's just black hat trolling. It is the opposite of the civility of social order you're trying to espouse.
tsieling 10y ago
>random individuals coming together, learning new things, and working towards a common goal Oh yes, it's like the enlightenment in a bottle.

by Vexs 10y ago

JamilD 10y ago

You can choose to regulate speech on your own property or site (just like HN does). You cannot vandalize someone else's property and infringe on their rights because you don't like what they say. There's no equivalence between the two.

tscs37 10y ago
I don't think this stems from not liking what they had to say, rather doing it just because it's something that can be done.
- derrickdirge 10y ago
  That's giving them the benefit of the doubt, to say the least.
  - smhost 10y ago
    It's the insanity defense for lacking human decency. Pretty hilarious, in a morbid kind of way.
  - Gargoyle 10y ago
    98 people have upvoted this story at this point. Part of an "intimidation campaign to silence free speech" or some people just think it was an interesting activity? Is it possible some/many/most of the people who actually participated in the activity also just found it interesting to do?

gech 10y ago

>random individuals coming together, learning new things, and working >towards a common goal You gotta be kidding me

accountface 10y ago

This is the most mind-bendingly deluded post I've seen on HN in a while. > individuals coming together, learning new things, and working towards a common goal the common goal here is being an asshole > if this was a nazi flag, would you feel the same way? Shia's flag said "he will not divide us" it was a message of unity that someone took down to replace with the representation of an administration with actual white nationalists as advisors. > it's a bit ironic that you bring up an attempt to shut down free speech, when that's exactly what shia did Yelling into someone's livefeed is free speech in a public place, but continuing to follow them and ultimately trespassing onto private property is harassment. Free speech isn't yelling whatever you want whenever you want. It's freedom from the government oppressing your speech. >would you feel the same if it was a nazi flag? This again? Seriously. Here's a challenge for you in the future: try to make a sound argument without simply throwing the word "nazi" in.

hex12648430 10y ago
>Shia's flag said "he will not divide us" it was a message of unity Unity that excludes almost half of the US population. I'm glad that people reacted against the passive-aggresiveness of this message when the stream was hosted in a public space. I don't condone stealing on a private property but let's not fool ourselves here, the message of this art project is reinforcing the US vs THEM mentality that is currently tearing Americans apart rather than truly trying to unify people.
- hackuser 10y ago
  > excludes almost half of the US population It does not. They are free and encouraged to join in (AFAIK). Those who embrace racial and religious discrimination, of course, might not choose the join, as the message contradicts their beliefs. But that is an old issue and red herring, the paradox of tolerance. Tolerate everyone but the intolerant, who are parasites on the social contract of tolerance.
  - mohanmcgeek 10y ago
    "he will not divide us" means that you're saying he's trying to divide you. So, you're making a claim about someone without backing it, and when people actually show up in support of him, you switch off the camera to preserve the narrative?

mcphage 10y ago

You seem to have missed the fact that it wasn't a Nazi flag.

Houshalter 10y ago

Oh good grief. These are the same people that were up in arms a few years ago when the use of the confederate flag was in the news. It's hypocritical to say the least. And yes, I would feel the same way if someone did it to a Nazi flag or a confederate flag. I don't actually care that much about the specific political ideologies. But the increased tribalism and decreased tolerance for freedom of opinion is terrifying. It is disgusting and we shouldn't be celebrating it.

euyyn 10y ago
> These are the same people Not sure you're understanding completely how an anonymous internet community works.

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

anigbrowl 10y ago

Think to yourself, if this was a nazi flag, would you feel the same way? That's basically what the Pepe flag stands for at this point, as I suspect you are already aware.

jimmies 10y ago
Why is Pepe a nazi symbol?
- Nadya 10y ago
  Because it became /r/The_Donald's de facto mascot and /r/The_Donald are all alt-right neo-nazis of course and the ADL classified it as antisemitic. Ignoring the very disclaimer they add that "not all Pepe images are symbols of hate speech". Nevermind that outside of political circles and people who take The Internet way too seriously, Pepe is just a stupid meme that has transformed from "Sad Frog" to "Woznak's friend" to "Betrayer of Woznak" to "Smug Frog/Pepe" to "Rare Pepe". And due to its prevalence in Chan Culture became a stupid meme to tell Channers from Normies (REEEEEEE) with the red Pepe with the wavy tongue. Honestly that meme has transformed quite a bit over the years. I'm convinced anyone who thinks Pepe is a symbol of the alt-right has no idea that The Internet has its own cultures and subcultures. It just so happens that 4chan and /r/The_Donald have a huge cross-section of users. No surprise that many 4chan memes are prominent there. The worst defense I've seen are images of Pepe shopped to be Hitler/a Nazi. FFS, you can find the same for Mickey Mouse and Hello Kitty - or nearly anything actually. Shopping something into Hitler is common. Makes me think if /r/The_Donald chose a Gay Pride or LGBT Flag as their "official flag" if it would cause people to second guess if someone supports LGBT or is an alt-right neo-nazi sympathizer. Talk about extremism. E: Just noticed your name and I feel you weren't asking your question seriously, but have a serious answer anyway, Mr. Jimmy Rustles
  - jimmies 10y ago
    My nickname suggests that I am a 4chinner (which is true), but the question above was legitimate and was with the best intention. The moment that Hillary went nuclear with the stupid, harmless frog was the moment that I questioned the things "progressive" people label people who don't agree with them. As silly as it was, it was truly the turning point of me re-examining what I read and listen to with a more skeptical approach. Thanks for the answer - it really unrustled my jimmies.

kordless 10y ago

Rationally, entities have choice. Any time an entity or an aggregate removes choice from an entity, by way of disrupting that entities communications, it is removal of choice for entity to speak freely. You remove choice from Shia when you attempt to indicate the irony in him "shutting down free speech" on his feed. In fact, given it is his communications channel, his right to limit anything disrupting that channel is well within his right, as entities have rational choice to speak their mind. Irrational choice is where logical arguments paralyze trusted communication. Your post, for example, does this here, by saying "but still", indicating disapproval of his actions. Further, you remove choice from the parent's post about their emotion of disgust. I find it disgusting people will continue to rationalize altering communication's trust in an effort to win an argument.

chatterbeak 10y ago

I'm left-leaning, but this was a "hack"--at worst a petty crime--not some evil action. Mr. LeBeouf proposed a challenge, and was defeated. It's also a good lesson on how hard it is to be anonymous. I got a good chuckle out of this, even if I'd rather not hear from the "frog" people!

pizza 10y ago

I'm not so sure this particular example of collective aggression for the sake of silencing someone's project is harmless or inspirational. It's just black hat trolling. It is the opposite of the civility of social order you're trying to espouse.

tsieling 10y ago

>random individuals coming together, learning new things, and working towards a common goal Oh yes, it's like the enlightenment in a bottle.