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That poll only surveyed areas where at least a fifth of the population was Muslim. From my experience growing up as an Orthodox Jew, areas with a higher concent

by verbify 10y ago

That poll only surveyed areas where at least a fifth of the population was Muslim. From my experience growing up as an Orthodox Jew, areas with a higher concentration of an ethnicity also tend to harbour the more extreme views. Whether that's because extremists tend to only want to hang out together or because hanging out with only your own kind makes you more extreme is irrelevant - that poll isn't an accurate reflection Of British Muslim views or any of the British Muslims I work with. http://m.huffpost.com/uk/entry/uk_570badf0e4b0fa55639d65a9 http://m.huffpost.com/uk/entry/uk_570badf0e4b0fa55639d65a9 But also consider this: a) Immigrants tend to adopt the mainstream culture over time b) By stopping people from immigrating, you're just keeping homophobia away from you, you're not preventing it existing. A gay child Of Muslim parents is better off in the UK than Pakistan even if his parents are going to continue to be homophobic. I'm not a fan OF NIMBYism.

fixxer 10y ago
NIMBYism is rationalism. It is irrational to think you can/should have policies in your system to serve people from a separate system. It presumes that you can establish a metric for right and wrong that applies to others, which is really just jingoism. Edit: wrt your 'A', there is a massive amount of things not said about how immigrants take on the values of their new country. Cato has published a few papers on that and it is always in the context of large aggregate stats dominated by immigrants from similar cultures (some might disagree, but Mexico is VERY similar to the US; Syria not so much)
- mozumder 10y ago
  Economics is rationalism. Literally. And economics has no concern about the well-being of any social group. If another social group creates more wealth than yours do via immigration, guess what? Your social group dies. If a bunch of marauding dark-skinned anti-gay Muslims practicing Sharia law creates more wealth than sweet, huggable white libertarians with flowers in their hands, guess who's going to dominate? There's no faking it in economics. Adapt or die. And white nationalists are going to learn the hard way that immigrants are what creates wealth in this country, since they work hard and have a lower crime rate than natives.
  - fixxer 10y ago
    White nationalism doesn't exist. This is just a label invented to explain why the Democrats have lost influence among middle-class America in places like Wisconsin, Indiana, Iowa... The left, however, is a real thing. When I worked with Obama's people, I worked with people that identified as "anarcho-socialists" that openly discussed entitlement expansion as a means to break the system. I could not invent the crap I heard these people say.
    - mozumder 10y ago
      I agree that white nationalism exists, especially with white-nationalists like Bannon in control of our government. They are truly a dangerous group that doesn't represent America's multi-cultural values. We have to make sure that white-nationalism is purged from this country, and an open-borders society is probably the best way to fight-off white-nationalism. We need to make sure a Sharia-law supporting Muslim is able to freely immigrate into this country and sit freely and peacefully alongside a Brazilian transgendered activist on our subways. That is the multiculturalism that we Americans want.
      - fixxer 10y ago
        You do a lot of virtue signaling in your commentary and presume to speak for "the masses". It is... amusing. I get that you have an opinion and it is fairly orthogonal to mine. Your opinion doesn't offend me or make me feel threatened, but the presumption that you speak for anyone beyond yourself is awkward. I want to understand your side, but your presentation is pitting you against good taste... I feel like I'm talking to that guy at the gym who went off his bipolar meds. Tone down the preaching of universal truth, perhaps?
coldtea 10y ago
>That poll only surveyed areas where at least a fifth of the population was Muslim. At the time, yes. But if TFA author's idea ("boundless immigration for everybody") was allowed, that could very well include all areas of UK, no? >that poll isn't an accurate reflection Of British Muslim views or any of the British Muslims I work with. Perhaps because as an white programmer (I suppose, not sure about the former, but being on HN puts you statistically closer to the latter, and to higher incomes in any case) you tend to only work with progressively minded muslim people, from more affluent backgrounds? Which would be an even less representative sample than the one in the poll? >Immigrants tend to adopt the mainstream culture over time Only when there's assimilation, and when their numbers are small. E.g. in the US, any particular immigrant group was still a relevant minority compared to the rest (though even today WASP ideas and power are prevalent in US culture). If the mainstream culture is not what it used to be (UK is no longer an empire of any sort, and it's not even "Swinging London" anymore), and the numbers of immigration population and the ease of communication with their originating country/culture, the internet, global TV programming etc make it much easier to stick to their original culture. Younger generation that look to upward mobility tend to adopt mainstream culture more easily, but that's not something many people, even from the "native" population, realistically aspire to anymore. >A gay child Of Muslim parents is better off in the UK than Pakistan even if his parents are going to continue to be homophobic. I'm not a fan OF NIMBYism. Only if the number of homophobic immigrants are not greater than the number of gay immigrants. Which, depending on the country of origin, might be a hard thing...
- verbify 10y ago
  I don't agree with the notion that if the UK opens its borders it'll be flooded. They said that about the EU, and it didn't exactly pan out like that. Sure, there's immigration, but it's not like we all speak Polish. And I'm not advocating opening borders immediately - just move in that direction and relax controls a bit.
  - coldtea 10y ago
    >They said that about the EU, and it didn't exactly pan out like that. Well, the EU never really opened its borders. >Sure, there's immigration, but it's not like we all speak Polish. That's because Poland has seen significant increase in local opportunities and no instability recently. Not the same as most parts of the world people want to immigrate to the EU from...
thomasahle 10y ago
I very much agree with you. Spreading western values by taking in immigrants is not a bad idea. Even if it doesn't change everyone in the world, it still shows that it is possible for the values to include everyone. It does assume integration though. If you take in immigrants, but isolate them and/or treat them badly, might it not be that you actually radicalize them further? (Of course we shouldn't isolate them, but if that effectively ends up happening it has to be considered.)

by verbify 10y ago

fixxer 10y ago

NIMBYism is rationalism. It is irrational to think you can/should have policies in your system to serve people from a separate system. It presumes that you can establish a metric for right and wrong that applies to others, which is really just jingoism. Edit: wrt your 'A', there is a massive amount of things not said about how immigrants take on the values of their new country. Cato has published a few papers on that and it is always in the context of large aggregate stats dominated by immigrants from similar cultures (some might disagree, but Mexico is VERY similar to the US; Syria not so much)

mozumder 10y ago
Economics is rationalism. Literally. And economics has no concern about the well-being of any social group. If another social group creates more wealth than yours do via immigration, guess what? Your social group dies. If a bunch of marauding dark-skinned anti-gay Muslims practicing Sharia law creates more wealth than sweet, huggable white libertarians with flowers in their hands, guess who's going to dominate? There's no faking it in economics. Adapt or die. And white nationalists are going to learn the hard way that immigrants are what creates wealth in this country, since they work hard and have a lower crime rate than natives.
- fixxer 10y ago
  White nationalism doesn't exist. This is just a label invented to explain why the Democrats have lost influence among middle-class America in places like Wisconsin, Indiana, Iowa... The left, however, is a real thing. When I worked with Obama's people, I worked with people that identified as "anarcho-socialists" that openly discussed entitlement expansion as a means to break the system. I could not invent the crap I heard these people say.
  - mozumder 10y ago
    I agree that white nationalism exists, especially with white-nationalists like Bannon in control of our government. They are truly a dangerous group that doesn't represent America's multi-cultural values. We have to make sure that white-nationalism is purged from this country, and an open-borders society is probably the best way to fight-off white-nationalism. We need to make sure a Sharia-law supporting Muslim is able to freely immigrate into this country and sit freely and peacefully alongside a Brazilian transgendered activist on our subways. That is the multiculturalism that we Americans want.
    - fixxer 10y ago
      You do a lot of virtue signaling in your commentary and presume to speak for "the masses". It is... amusing. I get that you have an opinion and it is fairly orthogonal to mine. Your opinion doesn't offend me or make me feel threatened, but the presumption that you speak for anyone beyond yourself is awkward. I want to understand your side, but your presentation is pitting you against good taste... I feel like I'm talking to that guy at the gym who went off his bipolar meds. Tone down the preaching of universal truth, perhaps?

coldtea 10y ago

>That poll only surveyed areas where at least a fifth of the population was Muslim. At the time, yes. But if TFA author's idea ("boundless immigration for everybody") was allowed, that could very well include all areas of UK, no? >that poll isn't an accurate reflection Of British Muslim views or any of the British Muslims I work with. Perhaps because as an white programmer (I suppose, not sure about the former, but being on HN puts you statistically closer to the latter, and to higher incomes in any case) you tend to only work with progressively minded muslim people, from more affluent backgrounds? Which would be an even less representative sample than the one in the poll? >Immigrants tend to adopt the mainstream culture over time Only when there's assimilation, and when their numbers are small. E.g. in the US, any particular immigrant group was still a relevant minority compared to the rest (though even today WASP ideas and power are prevalent in US culture). If the mainstream culture is not what it used to be (UK is no longer an empire of any sort, and it's not even "Swinging London" anymore), and the numbers of immigration population and the ease of communication with their originating country/culture, the internet, global TV programming etc make it much easier to stick to their original culture. Younger generation that look to upward mobility tend to adopt mainstream culture more easily, but that's not something many people, even from the "native" population, realistically aspire to anymore. >A gay child Of Muslim parents is better off in the UK than Pakistan even if his parents are going to continue to be homophobic. I'm not a fan OF NIMBYism. Only if the number of homophobic immigrants are not greater than the number of gay immigrants. Which, depending on the country of origin, might be a hard thing...

verbify 10y ago
I don't agree with the notion that if the UK opens its borders it'll be flooded. They said that about the EU, and it didn't exactly pan out like that. Sure, there's immigration, but it's not like we all speak Polish. And I'm not advocating opening borders immediately - just move in that direction and relax controls a bit.
- coldtea 10y ago
  >They said that about the EU, and it didn't exactly pan out like that. Well, the EU never really opened its borders. >Sure, there's immigration, but it's not like we all speak Polish. That's because Poland has seen significant increase in local opportunities and no instability recently. Not the same as most parts of the world people want to immigrate to the EU from...

thomasahle 10y ago

I very much agree with you. Spreading western values by taking in immigrants is not a bad idea. Even if it doesn't change everyone in the world, it still shows that it is possible for the values to include everyone. It does assume integration though. If you take in immigrants, but isolate them and/or treat them badly, might it not be that you actually radicalize them further? (Of course we shouldn't isolate them, but if that effectively ends up happening it has to be considered.)