4 ms·

This misses the point that all other types of engineering are regulated and licensed.

by hashkb 10y ago

hashkb 10y ago
...or at least ignores it without a reason.
Hyperborian 10y ago
Has that always been? Were the first engineers regulated and licensed? By whom? Perhaps we're just looking at a category of engineering that is not yet at that level of maturity.
Alex3917 10y ago
> This misses the point that all other types of engineering are regulated and licensed. Software is going to be regulated, licensed, and unionized within the next ten years. The main reason it's not currently is because the best practices have historically changed every couple years due to Moore's Law, but there is about to be an extended slowdown that will give the industry the time it needs to get its act together.
- frou_dh 10y ago
  There is a constant: people using memory-unsafe languages, and then collective shrugging after the same things have happened over and over. Cloudbleed? Old news by now...
- eru 10y ago
  Care to take a bet on that? We just need to nail down some details: what jurisdiction(s) are we talking about? And what do you mean by licenced?: eg people without the licence won't be allowed to program computers? What odds are you offering? I am pretty confident, so I am happy to give you ten to one odds. Ie you pay me 1 dollar if no regulation&unionization happens, I pay you 10 if it does.
  - Alex3917 10y ago
    Not interested in betting. > What jurisdiction(s) are we talking about? But to clarify, I'm talking about the U.S. > And what do you mean by licenced?: eg people without the licence won't be allowed to program computers? I think at least one of the big tech firms will be unionized within the next five years, with more following soon after. I think initially people already employed will be grandfathered in without any licensing requirements. But within a few years, I think folks are going to have to demonstrate basic knowledge of security principles in order to become union members. I don't think you will need a certification to work in the industry in the immediate future, but I think that tech employers will have a clear choice in choosing between union and non union employees.
    - eru 10y ago
      It's not about the money, it's about going on public record (and also about nailing down the odds you are willing to give). Interesting perspective you have. May I ask what makes you think so? Any current indications? What could go otherwise, and why? Do you see the beginning of these trends already? I would be very surprised if any of the big American big tech companies (say, Microsoft, Google, Facebook, Amazon or any other company that rises to similar status in the next five years) will get unionised like you say. There are already certificates available for employers to judge: be that university issued degrees or industry certificates like from Cisco or Microsoft. From all I can tell, the top employers don't care about them (and if anything, I have seen people scanning resumes react negatively to CVs claiming industry certifications). So current trends don't seem to point in your direction---as far as I can tell.
      - Alex3917 10y ago
        > May I ask what makes you think so? Any current indications? What could go otherwise, and why? Do you see the beginning of these trends already? Basically there are already people quietly working on this, and when those efforts surface it's going to become apparent that it's in everyone's best interests to go along. Unlike other industries, unionization in tech isn't going to be about negotiating salaries. Those are already good enough, and there is zero incentive for workers to organize around standardized wages. Instead, tech workers are going to negotiate for things like longer periods to exercise their options after changing employers, and ownership over their side projects. And in exchange, my prediction is that management is going to negotiate for labor to become more self-policing to lower their costs of hiring and risk exposure.
ubersoldat2k7 10y ago
OTOH, the same principles behind civil engineering apply today and 10 years in the future, which means it can be regulated. Just think what this would mean for software, taking into account the iPhone is 10 years old.
danpalmer 10y ago
We have regulations. I deal with the data protection act, if you use medical records there's lots of regulation around that. I'd argue that there's plenty of engineering that doesn't have regulation as well. I think engineering is less about adhering to regulations, and more about solving problems in a wider context.
nobleach 10y ago
All? Are people that work in music studios (Sound Engineers) regulated? I have know people that have gone to Full Sail (one of those 40,000 for-profit schools) That have gone on to be "Engineers". Engineer simply means "one who engineers things".... or drives a train.
ohstopitu 10y ago
Software Engineering is recognized as Engineering both by IEEE and by Professional Engineers of Ontario (or other provinces) who are members of Engineers Canada. Certification does exist....it's not widely used or accepted because in most cases, companies want developers not engineers. To add to it, the only thing stopping Software Engineers from becoming members of the above mentioned organizations is a code of ethics (and experience) - not knowledge or know-how.
- naasking 10y ago
  > Certification does exist....it's not widely used or accepted That's an understatement. Was speaking to a fellow engineer recently, and he claimed that there are really only two licensed software engineers in all of Toronto. We probably have tens of thousands of software developers.
  - ohstopitu 10y ago
    The only place where I've seen the certification as a requirement is govt jobs (and UfT I believe). Apart from those two, I've yet to find even a reference for it (let alone a requirement) - which is a cycle because one of the requirements of being a PEO is 12 months of work experience under a PEO (which won't happen as there aren't enough PEOs - the chicken and egg problem).
    - Panini_Jones 10y ago
      Can you link to the U of T job with the cert requirement?
- KeytarHero 10y ago
  "Engineer" is a protected title in Canada (like "Lawyer" or "Doctor", although not as strictly enforced). You can't use it unless you're a member of your province's professional engineer organization. It's incorrect to say an engineer can "become" a member of one of these organizations, because you're not legally an engineer until you are a certified member.
2_listerine_pls 10y ago
If you take a look at the definition of engineer, nowhere does it say that you must have a license.
eru 10y ago
You say that like it's a good thing?

This misses the point that all other types of engineering are regulated and licensed.

by hashkb 10y ago

This misses the point that all other types of engineering are regulated and licensed.

hashkb 10y ago

...or at least ignores it without a reason.

Hyperborian 10y ago

Has that always been? Were the first engineers regulated and licensed? By whom? Perhaps we're just looking at a category of engineering that is not yet at that level of maturity.

Alex3917 10y ago

> This misses the point that all other types of engineering are regulated and licensed. Software is going to be regulated, licensed, and unionized within the next ten years. The main reason it's not currently is because the best practices have historically changed every couple years due to Moore's Law, but there is about to be an extended slowdown that will give the industry the time it needs to get its act together.

frou_dh 10y ago
There is a constant: people using memory-unsafe languages, and then collective shrugging after the same things have happened over and over. Cloudbleed? Old news by now...
eru 10y ago
Care to take a bet on that? We just need to nail down some details: what jurisdiction(s) are we talking about? And what do you mean by licenced?: eg people without the licence won't be allowed to program computers? What odds are you offering? I am pretty confident, so I am happy to give you ten to one odds. Ie you pay me 1 dollar if no regulation&unionization happens, I pay you 10 if it does.
- Alex3917 10y ago
  Not interested in betting. > What jurisdiction(s) are we talking about? But to clarify, I'm talking about the U.S. > And what do you mean by licenced?: eg people without the licence won't be allowed to program computers? I think at least one of the big tech firms will be unionized within the next five years, with more following soon after. I think initially people already employed will be grandfathered in without any licensing requirements. But within a few years, I think folks are going to have to demonstrate basic knowledge of security principles in order to become union members. I don't think you will need a certification to work in the industry in the immediate future, but I think that tech employers will have a clear choice in choosing between union and non union employees.
  - eru 10y ago
    It's not about the money, it's about going on public record (and also about nailing down the odds you are willing to give). Interesting perspective you have. May I ask what makes you think so? Any current indications? What could go otherwise, and why? Do you see the beginning of these trends already? I would be very surprised if any of the big American big tech companies (say, Microsoft, Google, Facebook, Amazon or any other company that rises to similar status in the next five years) will get unionised like you say. There are already certificates available for employers to judge: be that university issued degrees or industry certificates like from Cisco or Microsoft. From all I can tell, the top employers don't care about them (and if anything, I have seen people scanning resumes react negatively to CVs claiming industry certifications). So current trends don't seem to point in your direction---as far as I can tell.
    - Alex3917 10y ago
      > May I ask what makes you think so? Any current indications? What could go otherwise, and why? Do you see the beginning of these trends already? Basically there are already people quietly working on this, and when those efforts surface it's going to become apparent that it's in everyone's best interests to go along. Unlike other industries, unionization in tech isn't going to be about negotiating salaries. Those are already good enough, and there is zero incentive for workers to organize around standardized wages. Instead, tech workers are going to negotiate for things like longer periods to exercise their options after changing employers, and ownership over their side projects. And in exchange, my prediction is that management is going to negotiate for labor to become more self-policing to lower their costs of hiring and risk exposure.

ubersoldat2k7 10y ago

OTOH, the same principles behind civil engineering apply today and 10 years in the future, which means it can be regulated. Just think what this would mean for software, taking into account the iPhone is 10 years old.

danpalmer 10y ago

We have regulations. I deal with the data protection act, if you use medical records there's lots of regulation around that. I'd argue that there's plenty of engineering that doesn't have regulation as well. I think engineering is less about adhering to regulations, and more about solving problems in a wider context.

nobleach 10y ago

All? Are people that work in music studios (Sound Engineers) regulated? I have know people that have gone to Full Sail (one of those 40,000 for-profit schools) That have gone on to be "Engineers". Engineer simply means "one who engineers things".... or drives a train.

ohstopitu 10y ago

Software Engineering is recognized as Engineering both by IEEE and by Professional Engineers of Ontario (or other provinces) who are members of Engineers Canada. Certification does exist....it's not widely used or accepted because in most cases, companies want developers not engineers. To add to it, the only thing stopping Software Engineers from becoming members of the above mentioned organizations is a code of ethics (and experience) - not knowledge or know-how.

naasking 10y ago
> Certification does exist....it's not widely used or accepted That's an understatement. Was speaking to a fellow engineer recently, and he claimed that there are really only two licensed software engineers in all of Toronto. We probably have tens of thousands of software developers.
- ohstopitu 10y ago
  The only place where I've seen the certification as a requirement is govt jobs (and UfT I believe). Apart from those two, I've yet to find even a reference for it (let alone a requirement) - which is a cycle because one of the requirements of being a PEO is 12 months of work experience under a PEO (which won't happen as there aren't enough PEOs - the chicken and egg problem).
  - Panini_Jones 10y ago
    Can you link to the U of T job with the cert requirement?
KeytarHero 10y ago
"Engineer" is a protected title in Canada (like "Lawyer" or "Doctor", although not as strictly enforced). You can't use it unless you're a member of your province's professional engineer organization. It's incorrect to say an engineer can "become" a member of one of these organizations, because you're not legally an engineer until you are a certified member.

2_listerine_pls 10y ago

If you take a look at the definition of engineer, nowhere does it say that you must have a license.

eru 10y ago

You say that like it's a good thing?