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> who knew the great battle over privacy would be lost before it even started, because people want their toaster to go online? I think the issue is there are n

by FTA 10y ago

> who knew the great battle over privacy would be lost before it even started, because people want their toaster to go online? I think the issue is there are no good alternatives for the typical consumer. There needs to be a push back on companies to provide these sorts of smart home/tv/music technologies for the public in a distributed manner, i.e. components not needing to connect back to a company server but instead a local one. Sure, the average HN reader can probably set something up like that, but until a solution without tons of coding and assemblage comes along, we will be stuck in this status quo. EFF could be a starting point to rally people behind creating a market demand and supporting companies in a quest for privacy-minded solutions.

M_Grey 10y ago
What does the typical consumer actually get out of a networked refrigerator, or a smart TV (which tend to be almost universally inferior to even inexpensive add-ons to make them 'smart')? The IoT seems to be based on virtually pure marketing spin and manufactured demand, with a really predictable resulting mega botnet.
- CaptSpify 10y ago
  > What does the typical consumer actually get out of a networked refrigerator, or a smart TV... So many things. Just because you can't figure out how to use a feature, doesn't mean it's not useful. Maybe I need to see how many eggs I have left, or what temperature a corner of the fridge is, or have a way to tell when my milk is going bad? IoT is bringing in some potentially cool stuff, but being dependent on an on-line "service", and being closed and proprietary is making it worthless.
  - M_Grey 10y ago
    >Maybe I need to see how many eggs I have left, or what temperature a corner of the fridge is, or have a way to tell when my milk is going bad? And for the ability to do that without just... you know... opening the damned fridge you're willing to buy into the IoT. That's an insane tradeoff, for benefits the typical consumer would laugh at you for buying into.
    - kardos 10y ago
      Surely it would be useful to check fridge contents remotely while at the supermarket. Is it worth the (present) sacrifice of privacy and security? Imagine a fridge that is both secure and private... would you dismiss the feature then?
      - M_Grey 10y ago
        No, in that case it would be a fun, and potentially useful feature. That said, the use is extremely minimal, since it's really only a backup for poor planning. If you check the fridge before you shop (when making a list for example) you avoid all of this. The truth is though, if you want a really secure fridge, it either needs to be much more expensive or... you know... just a fridge.
        kardos 10y ago
        "Extremely minimal" is debatable. You could make the same argument for GPS / phone map apps. Yes, of course you could have consulted a map before you left the house. The fact that we no longer have to is the benefit that technology has afforded us. Remote fridge viewing is in the same category.
        M_Grey 10y ago
        Lets be real... GPS is a highly versatile tech that can keep time, coordinate global markets, makes Uber possible, enables GPS directions and let us not forget... also fairly useful in military applications. A camera in your fridge, is a camera in your fridge. It serves one purpose, and it's the one you achieve by necessity every time you get anything from the fridge.
        fnord123 10y ago
        I think there's no way a camera in the fridge could do the job it needs to do (seeing through several shelves and inside drawers; not getting frosted over). I think we'd have to move to rfids on food packaging; akin to bar codes. This could help with the pantry as well. Not sure it can help with food from your butcher or {cheese, fish}monger.
  - gens 10y ago
    Those are bad examples.
    - CaptSpify 10y ago
      Why? They are just examples I made off the top of my head.
      - gens 10y ago
        > see how many eggs I have left Requires machine vision (or you telling it every time you take out an egg), doesn't have much to do with IoT (unless you want to see that from your TV or phone, that i guess you do). > what temperature a corner of the fridge is So many things to say, with the most prominent being that your fridge would have to have a ton of sensors. Again, not much to do with IoT (can even be analog, unless you want to check it on your office computer, ofc). > have a way to tell when my milk is going bad This is a lot harder then one might think. Did you buy fresh milk ? Pasteurized milk ? When did you open it ? What kind of bacteria live in your mouth/kitchen ? How long was it open ? One could put a sensor for a specific gas in the milk package but even that has problems as the thin layer of milk on the side of the package will go sour faster but the milk itself will be fine. Ofc, the fridge could guess. But you won't know anything for sure until you open the fridge and check. And the extra complexity means not just higher cost but also lower reliability. > IoT is bringing in some potentially cool stuff, .. Yes. I intend to, someday, plug a RPI to the TV and lights and put speech recognition on it. Star Trek FTW. But it is no problem living without it all. For a better living i recommend moving to a wooden house (or just putting wood on the inside of rooms), as it is a much better feeling then titanium white painted minerals.
        CaptSpify 10y ago
        > Requires machine vision no it doesn't. rfid, weight, a camera, can easily do this. > the most prominent being that your fridge would have to have a ton of sensors Sensors? in a refrigerator? the horror! How could we ever accomplish such a tremendous feat?!? /sarcasm > This is a lot harder then one might think. Sure, but it doesn't mean it's not possible. Just because something is hard doesn't mean we shouldn't do it. I'd argue the opposite. > But it is no problem living without it all. And it's no problem living without a cell phone, or central heating, or indoor plumbing, but we don't see many people running to that lifestyle very often. Just because you don't want something, has no bearing on whether other people want it or not.
- csydas 10y ago
  Well keep in mind it's often not a choice for consumers with some appliances. For example try to buy a non-Smart TV right now that is > 28" from a store; most models are going to have IoT features, web and microphone mostly, always on whether you like it or not. It's not that people don't understand the implications of the IoT [1], but they often find the choice of do without more costly than do with IoT. [1] I'll grant most probably won't understand how a lightbulb lets some script kiddie make the network shitty for a few hours or days, but even then if the people understood the why/how they wouldn't really get it in full.
- PeterStuer 10y ago
  In theory your future 'smart-grid' aggregator will give you a lower electricity tariff if you meet your 'flexible demand targets', by letting them control the cooling of your fridge. They will cool it deeper when there is an energy surplus, so they can switch it off for a while when demand on the grid is high.
  - TheSpiceIsLife 10y ago
    No thanks, that will ruin my leafy-greens. Maybe it could freeze the freezer more? If Musk and others have their way we'll change batteries at home when demand is low well before smart electrical appliances make any difference.

by FTA 10y ago

M_Grey 10y ago

What does the typical consumer actually get out of a networked refrigerator, or a smart TV (which tend to be almost universally inferior to even inexpensive add-ons to make them 'smart')? The IoT seems to be based on virtually pure marketing spin and manufactured demand, with a really predictable resulting mega botnet.

CaptSpify 10y ago
> What does the typical consumer actually get out of a networked refrigerator, or a smart TV... So many things. Just because you can't figure out how to use a feature, doesn't mean it's not useful. Maybe I need to see how many eggs I have left, or what temperature a corner of the fridge is, or have a way to tell when my milk is going bad? IoT is bringing in some potentially cool stuff, but being dependent on an on-line "service", and being closed and proprietary is making it worthless.
- M_Grey 10y ago
  >Maybe I need to see how many eggs I have left, or what temperature a corner of the fridge is, or have a way to tell when my milk is going bad? And for the ability to do that without just... you know... opening the damned fridge you're willing to buy into the IoT. That's an insane tradeoff, for benefits the typical consumer would laugh at you for buying into.
  - kardos 10y ago
    Surely it would be useful to check fridge contents remotely while at the supermarket. Is it worth the (present) sacrifice of privacy and security? Imagine a fridge that is both secure and private... would you dismiss the feature then?
    - M_Grey 10y ago
      No, in that case it would be a fun, and potentially useful feature. That said, the use is extremely minimal, since it's really only a backup for poor planning. If you check the fridge before you shop (when making a list for example) you avoid all of this. The truth is though, if you want a really secure fridge, it either needs to be much more expensive or... you know... just a fridge.
      - kardos 10y ago
        "Extremely minimal" is debatable. You could make the same argument for GPS / phone map apps. Yes, of course you could have consulted a map before you left the house. The fact that we no longer have to is the benefit that technology has afforded us. Remote fridge viewing is in the same category.
        M_Grey 10y ago
        Lets be real... GPS is a highly versatile tech that can keep time, coordinate global markets, makes Uber possible, enables GPS directions and let us not forget... also fairly useful in military applications. A camera in your fridge, is a camera in your fridge. It serves one purpose, and it's the one you achieve by necessity every time you get anything from the fridge.
        fnord123 10y ago
        I think there's no way a camera in the fridge could do the job it needs to do (seeing through several shelves and inside drawers; not getting frosted over). I think we'd have to move to rfids on food packaging; akin to bar codes. This could help with the pantry as well. Not sure it can help with food from your butcher or {cheese, fish}monger.
- gens 10y ago
  Those are bad examples.
  - CaptSpify 10y ago
    Why? They are just examples I made off the top of my head.
    - gens 10y ago
      > see how many eggs I have left Requires machine vision (or you telling it every time you take out an egg), doesn't have much to do with IoT (unless you want to see that from your TV or phone, that i guess you do). > what temperature a corner of the fridge is So many things to say, with the most prominent being that your fridge would have to have a ton of sensors. Again, not much to do with IoT (can even be analog, unless you want to check it on your office computer, ofc). > have a way to tell when my milk is going bad This is a lot harder then one might think. Did you buy fresh milk ? Pasteurized milk ? When did you open it ? What kind of bacteria live in your mouth/kitchen ? How long was it open ? One could put a sensor for a specific gas in the milk package but even that has problems as the thin layer of milk on the side of the package will go sour faster but the milk itself will be fine. Ofc, the fridge could guess. But you won't know anything for sure until you open the fridge and check. And the extra complexity means not just higher cost but also lower reliability. > IoT is bringing in some potentially cool stuff, .. Yes. I intend to, someday, plug a RPI to the TV and lights and put speech recognition on it. Star Trek FTW. But it is no problem living without it all. For a better living i recommend moving to a wooden house (or just putting wood on the inside of rooms), as it is a much better feeling then titanium white painted minerals.
      - CaptSpify 10y ago
        > Requires machine vision no it doesn't. rfid, weight, a camera, can easily do this. > the most prominent being that your fridge would have to have a ton of sensors Sensors? in a refrigerator? the horror! How could we ever accomplish such a tremendous feat?!? /sarcasm > This is a lot harder then one might think. Sure, but it doesn't mean it's not possible. Just because something is hard doesn't mean we shouldn't do it. I'd argue the opposite. > But it is no problem living without it all. And it's no problem living without a cell phone, or central heating, or indoor plumbing, but we don't see many people running to that lifestyle very often. Just because you don't want something, has no bearing on whether other people want it or not.
csydas 10y ago
Well keep in mind it's often not a choice for consumers with some appliances. For example try to buy a non-Smart TV right now that is > 28" from a store; most models are going to have IoT features, web and microphone mostly, always on whether you like it or not. It's not that people don't understand the implications of the IoT [1], but they often find the choice of do without more costly than do with IoT. [1] I'll grant most probably won't understand how a lightbulb lets some script kiddie make the network shitty for a few hours or days, but even then if the people understood the why/how they wouldn't really get it in full.
PeterStuer 10y ago
In theory your future 'smart-grid' aggregator will give you a lower electricity tariff if you meet your 'flexible demand targets', by letting them control the cooling of your fridge. They will cool it deeper when there is an energy surplus, so they can switch it off for a while when demand on the grid is high.
- TheSpiceIsLife 10y ago
  No thanks, that will ruin my leafy-greens. Maybe it could freeze the freezer more? If Musk and others have their way we'll change batteries at home when demand is low well before smart electrical appliances make any difference.