6 ms·

EFF Applauds Amazon for Pushing Back on Request for Echo Data

109 points by DiabloD3 10y ago

gkoberger 10y ago
While I'm glad Amazon pushed back, it did set some precedents and isn't exactly a victory. They eventually handed over the data (at the owner's consent), which does two things: 1) confirms they do have data and the ability to turn it over 2) makes anyone who doesn't hand over the data seems guilty (hey, if you have nothing to hide...) Privacy is eroded one step at a time.
- Xorlev 10y ago
  > 1) confirms they do have data and the ability to turn it over Not necessarily. We don't know what they handed over. For all we know right now, it literally could be a single request to start a timer or check the weather. The use of the data seems dubious assuming that Alexa has to hear the trigger word before sending data to Amazon. Judging by the traffic on my network, I'd say that's the case. I don't see a persistent stream coming from my Alexa device beyond periodic pings.
  - M_Grey 10y ago
    Keep in mind that a key piece of evidence in the murder case in question is a single datapoint from his smart water-meter. "Why did you use 140 gallons of water around 2AM? Long shower bud?"
    - woogiewonka 10y ago
      Depressing.
    - icebraining 10y ago
      How is it not relevant whether someone used a lot of water after the homeowner was dead?
      - M_Grey 10y ago
        According to police records, a city utility billing and collections manager told detectives that, on the night of Collins's death, 140 gallons of water were used at Bates's home between 1 and 3 a.m., an amount of water usage that exceeded all other periods there since October 2013. “In comparison, while all four [men] were together earlier that evening, they never used more than 10 gallons of water in an hour,” police reports said. “The amount of water used between 0100-0300 hours was consistent with spraying down the back patio area, which may have resulted in the wet concrete patterns observed on the morning of November 22nd.” The utility department's source? Each home in Bentonville was on a smart meter, police were told, to measure and record the exact consumption of electricity and water every hour. -Washington Post The homeowner wasn't the one who died.
- amrrs 10y ago
  A warrant can get anything done in a Law-bound state and it's the duty of companies to make sure the data is hard-encrypted https://hackernoon.com/what-does-amazon-handing-over-echo-data-mean-to-me-to-you-to-a-developer-f6100394bce0#.3zpl1hu65 https://hackernoon.com/what-does-amazon-handing-over-echo-da...
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
M_Grey 10y ago
The EFF must feel totally hopeless at this point. People are buying microphones with internet connections and sticking them in their homes. They're making the choice to buy "smart" IoT shit that spies on them. They're at a point of defending a major company selling that stuff, because they didn't instantly roll over when approached by law enforcement. It's like... PETA complimenting a butcher on a clean kill. I don't blame them though... who knew the great battle over privacy would be lost before it even started, because people want their toaster to go online?
- jasonkostempski 10y ago
  The EFF is more concerned with the legal side of things. They do more than their fair share trying to inform people of what's going on but that can only go so far, it's a fact that most people do not give a hoot. The important fight is keeping laws around the stuff as sane as possible.
  - M_Grey 10y ago
    Right, but those people who don't give a hoot elect the politicians who write the laws. They're focusing on the one aspect of the problem they can possibly approach, but it's ultimately like a circular shoving match... utterly hopeless. The EFF can't pressure lawmakers if they can't rally people to apply that pressure. When most people just shrug and buy an IoT toaster, it's not hard to see how this goes.
    - jasonkostempski 10y ago
      I think some of the big tech companies get it, or at least the the value of having "us" on their side, and have some influence on law makers. It might help that those people vote too, since if someone goes around saying they want legal taps into toaster, the people with the toasters might start thinking about how that's kind of scary.
- FTA 10y ago
  > who knew the great battle over privacy would be lost before it even started, because people want their toaster to go online? I think the issue is there are no good alternatives for the typical consumer. There needs to be a push back on companies to provide these sorts of smart home/tv/music technologies for the public in a distributed manner, i.e. components not needing to connect back to a company server but instead a local one. Sure, the average HN reader can probably set something up like that, but until a solution without tons of coding and assemblage comes along, we will be stuck in this status quo. EFF could be a starting point to rally people behind creating a market demand and supporting companies in a quest for privacy-minded solutions.
tannhaeuser 10y ago
I absolutely support EFF, but it must be said that privacy and decentralization can be in conflict with Free software. Namely, by flooding the world with GPL and liberally-licensed web software, it becomes a commodity item, making "the cloud" possible in the first place, and enslaving people.
- kardos 10y ago
  Ehh, not really, the cloud is similarly possible without free software. Indeed much of the big name cloud provider's backend software would be in-house anyway. Windows VMs exist too. I guess your point is closer to 'free software makes the cloud cheaper', which in turn makes it easier to ensnare people..
- endgame 10y ago
  This is why I'm saddened that so few projects made the move to GPLv3, and most moderns stuff is BSD/MIT/X11-style licenses.
codedokode 10y ago
Would not it be better if Amazon didn't keep those data at all and maybe even made sound recognition on a client?

109 points by DiabloD3 10y ago

While I'm glad Amazon pushed back, it did set some precedents and isn't exactly a victory. They eventually handed over the data (at the owner's consent), which does two things: 1) confirms they do have data and the ability to turn it over 2) makes anyone who doesn't hand over the data seems guilty (hey, if you have nothing to hide...) Privacy is eroded one step at a time.

Xorlev 10y ago
> 1) confirms they do have data and the ability to turn it over Not necessarily. We don't know what they handed over. For all we know right now, it literally could be a single request to start a timer or check the weather. The use of the data seems dubious assuming that Alexa has to hear the trigger word before sending data to Amazon. Judging by the traffic on my network, I'd say that's the case. I don't see a persistent stream coming from my Alexa device beyond periodic pings.
- M_Grey 10y ago
  Keep in mind that a key piece of evidence in the murder case in question is a single datapoint from his smart water-meter. "Why did you use 140 gallons of water around 2AM? Long shower bud?"
  - woogiewonka 10y ago
    Depressing.
  - icebraining 10y ago
    How is it not relevant whether someone used a lot of water after the homeowner was dead?
    - M_Grey 10y ago
      According to police records, a city utility billing and collections manager told detectives that, on the night of Collins's death, 140 gallons of water were used at Bates's home between 1 and 3 a.m., an amount of water usage that exceeded all other periods there since October 2013. “In comparison, while all four [men] were together earlier that evening, they never used more than 10 gallons of water in an hour,” police reports said. “The amount of water used between 0100-0300 hours was consistent with spraying down the back patio area, which may have resulted in the wet concrete patterns observed on the morning of November 22nd.” The utility department's source? Each home in Bentonville was on a smart meter, police were told, to measure and record the exact consumption of electricity and water every hour. -Washington Post The homeowner wasn't the one who died.
amrrs 10y ago
A warrant can get anything done in a Law-bound state and it's the duty of companies to make sure the data is hard-encrypted https://hackernoon.com/what-does-amazon-handing-over-echo-data-mean-to-me-to-you-to-a-developer-f6100394bce0#.3zpl1hu65 https://hackernoon.com/what-does-amazon-handing-over-echo-da...

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

M_Grey 10y ago

The EFF must feel totally hopeless at this point. People are buying microphones with internet connections and sticking them in their homes. They're making the choice to buy "smart" IoT shit that spies on them. They're at a point of defending a major company selling that stuff, because they didn't instantly roll over when approached by law enforcement. It's like... PETA complimenting a butcher on a clean kill. I don't blame them though... who knew the great battle over privacy would be lost before it even started, because people want their toaster to go online?

jasonkostempski 10y ago
The EFF is more concerned with the legal side of things. They do more than their fair share trying to inform people of what's going on but that can only go so far, it's a fact that most people do not give a hoot. The important fight is keeping laws around the stuff as sane as possible.
- M_Grey 10y ago
  Right, but those people who don't give a hoot elect the politicians who write the laws. They're focusing on the one aspect of the problem they can possibly approach, but it's ultimately like a circular shoving match... utterly hopeless. The EFF can't pressure lawmakers if they can't rally people to apply that pressure. When most people just shrug and buy an IoT toaster, it's not hard to see how this goes.
  - jasonkostempski 10y ago
    I think some of the big tech companies get it, or at least the the value of having "us" on their side, and have some influence on law makers. It might help that those people vote too, since if someone goes around saying they want legal taps into toaster, the people with the toasters might start thinking about how that's kind of scary.
FTA 10y ago
> who knew the great battle over privacy would be lost before it even started, because people want their toaster to go online? I think the issue is there are no good alternatives for the typical consumer. There needs to be a push back on companies to provide these sorts of smart home/tv/music technologies for the public in a distributed manner, i.e. components not needing to connect back to a company server but instead a local one. Sure, the average HN reader can probably set something up like that, but until a solution without tons of coding and assemblage comes along, we will be stuck in this status quo. EFF could be a starting point to rally people behind creating a market demand and supporting companies in a quest for privacy-minded solutions.

tannhaeuser 10y ago

I absolutely support EFF, but it must be said that privacy and decentralization can be in conflict with Free software. Namely, by flooding the world with GPL and liberally-licensed web software, it becomes a commodity item, making "the cloud" possible in the first place, and enslaving people.

kardos 10y ago
Ehh, not really, the cloud is similarly possible without free software. Indeed much of the big name cloud provider's backend software would be in-house anyway. Windows VMs exist too. I guess your point is closer to 'free software makes the cloud cheaper', which in turn makes it easier to ensnare people..
endgame 10y ago
This is why I'm saddened that so few projects made the move to GPLv3, and most moderns stuff is BSD/MIT/X11-style licenses.

codedokode 10y ago

Would not it be better if Amazon didn't keep those data at all and maybe even made sound recognition on a client?