5 ms·

>She's got the money for the dope, and heroin don't care. So you what do you propose as a solution for this (likely unrepresentative) anecdote? Lock her up?

scurvy 10y ago
I don't have a solution, but my point was that not all addicts are victims. For some, it's a conscious decision about choosing heroin over life (insert Trainspotting ending here). Unless the US adopts some sort of ASBO laws, there's not much you can do about forced treatment for someone who doesn't choose treatment. Also, you could substitute heroin here with any other equally damaging substance like alcohol and the situation wouldn't change.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- smokeyj 10y ago
  > Also, you could substitute heroin here with any other equally damaging substance Desk jobs and fast food? As long as we have public healthcare I reserve the right to smack that bag of chips out of your chubby fingers. /end of rant
- wyager 10y ago
  Even if ASBO laws were effective, I'd rather have a few drug abusers than ASBO laws. I don't want the government to be able to use force against people for being "anti-social", however that happens to be defined or interpreted. I've seen some ridiculous cases of punishment for "anti-social behavior" out of the UK, including what essentially amounts to outlawing particular unsavory political beliefs. I encourage everyone to read https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-social_behaviour_order https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-social_behaviour_order which has a list of things the government was allowed to punish you for, including "rudeness" and "xenophobia". The most recent ASBO legislation is https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Social_Behaviour,_Crime_and_Policing_Act_2014 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Social_Behaviour,_Crime... which I am not familiar with.
  - scurvy 10y ago
    This is the problem with the HackerNews libertarian streak. You're in favor of legalized drugs, prostitution, etc. But no one wants their daughter to grow up and be a crackwhore.
    - gozur88 10y ago
      I'd rather take the risk that my daughter would grow up to be a crack whore than leave anti-drug busybodies the kind of power they've managed to accrue.
- deelowe 10y ago
  How about we just let addicts be addicts while we figure the rest out. That's certainly better than today's situation where we make extra sure we ruin their lives to, ya know, protect them from themselves.
  - friedman23 10y ago
    Because that has worked historically.
  - scurvy 10y ago
    The problem is they create a wake of destruction in their path of addiction.
    - toomuchtodo 10y ago
      The cost of a free society. Keep that ASBO trash on the other side of the pond.
      - scurvy 10y ago
        How about charging them for their public costs? If you get rescued by helicopter because you went skiing out of bounds at a resort and got lost, don't they send you a bill? How about that for people with money who abuse the system while abusing other things?
        toomuchtodo 10y ago
        Like how the Japanese will send a bill to the family of someone who commits suicide on a train line? I prefer my government to absorb the cost of human despair rather than bill for it. Don't write policy based on outliers.
        jasonkostempski 10y ago
        Sending the bill to the family is dumb but there's sense in sending the person responsible for damages bills. I think we already mostly do that though, they just don't always pay the bill.
zkms 10y ago
from OP, > chooses heroin over treatment instead Until people realise that this is a rational and sensical decision there won't be any solutions for these problems and these cases. The US drug "treatment" / "rehab" industry is notoriously awful and is dominated by pseudo-religious ideologues obsessed with abstinence (to the point that "cult" is often an accurate, non-hyperbolic term) and whose practices are not based on any medical evidence of what reduces deaths. It's a fucked up industry that loves to use degradation, isolation, and humiliation on its "patients", loves to make people withdraw suddenly from their drug use and force them to endure the withdrawal symptoms, and isn't even particularly good at helping people not die from heroin/opioid use. Given the current state of the rehab industry, and given how ineffective the "treatments" it offers are, it can alas be a rational decision to avoid it. here's some reading that is relevant: https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/04/the-irrationality-of-alcoholics-anonymous/386255/ https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/04/the-irr... http://theinfluence.org/the-rehab-industry-badly-needs-to-clean-up-its-act-heres-how/ http://theinfluence.org/the-rehab-industry-badly-needs-to-cl... http://www.salon.com/2012/08/28/do_12_step_programs_lead_to_cults/ http://www.salon.com/2012/08/28/do_12_step_programs_lead_to_... http://projects.huffingtonpost.com/dying-to-be-free-heroin-treatment?ncid=tweetlnkushpmg00000067 http://projects.huffingtonpost.com/dying-to-be-free-heroin-t...
- Sunset 10y ago
  So why give them the choice in the first place?
  - koverstreet 10y ago
    So the rehab industry is shit, and your response is literally "make people go through it anyways"?
    - Sunset 10y ago
      Well give them an option. Cold turkey in isolation block in jail or rehab. Guess which they'll pick.
Sunset 10y ago
Why not? Make "having taken these drugs in the past and tested positive for them in your system" a crime. Then just systematically lock all addicts up and ship them off to freshly constructed prisons in Alaska.
- projektir 10y ago
  Um, Poe's law?

scurvy 10y ago

I don't have a solution, but my point was that not all addicts are victims. For some, it's a conscious decision about choosing heroin over life (insert Trainspotting ending here). Unless the US adopts some sort of ASBO laws, there's not much you can do about forced treatment for someone who doesn't choose treatment. Also, you could substitute heroin here with any other equally damaging substance like alcohol and the situation wouldn't change.

deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
smokeyj 10y ago
> Also, you could substitute heroin here with any other equally damaging substance Desk jobs and fast food? As long as we have public healthcare I reserve the right to smack that bag of chips out of your chubby fingers. /end of rant
wyager 10y ago
Even if ASBO laws were effective, I'd rather have a few drug abusers than ASBO laws. I don't want the government to be able to use force against people for being "anti-social", however that happens to be defined or interpreted. I've seen some ridiculous cases of punishment for "anti-social behavior" out of the UK, including what essentially amounts to outlawing particular unsavory political beliefs. I encourage everyone to read https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-social_behaviour_order https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-social_behaviour_order which has a list of things the government was allowed to punish you for, including "rudeness" and "xenophobia". The most recent ASBO legislation is https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Social_Behaviour,_Crime_and_Policing_Act_2014 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Social_Behaviour,_Crime... which I am not familiar with.
- scurvy 10y ago
  This is the problem with the HackerNews libertarian streak. You're in favor of legalized drugs, prostitution, etc. But no one wants their daughter to grow up and be a crackwhore.
  - gozur88 10y ago
    I'd rather take the risk that my daughter would grow up to be a crack whore than leave anti-drug busybodies the kind of power they've managed to accrue.
deelowe 10y ago
How about we just let addicts be addicts while we figure the rest out. That's certainly better than today's situation where we make extra sure we ruin their lives to, ya know, protect them from themselves.
- friedman23 10y ago
  Because that has worked historically.
- scurvy 10y ago
  The problem is they create a wake of destruction in their path of addiction.
  - toomuchtodo 10y ago
    The cost of a free society. Keep that ASBO trash on the other side of the pond.
    - scurvy 10y ago
      How about charging them for their public costs? If you get rescued by helicopter because you went skiing out of bounds at a resort and got lost, don't they send you a bill? How about that for people with money who abuse the system while abusing other things?
      - toomuchtodo 10y ago
        Like how the Japanese will send a bill to the family of someone who commits suicide on a train line? I prefer my government to absorb the cost of human despair rather than bill for it. Don't write policy based on outliers.
        jasonkostempski 10y ago
        Sending the bill to the family is dumb but there's sense in sending the person responsible for damages bills. I think we already mostly do that though, they just don't always pay the bill.

zkms 10y ago

from OP, > chooses heroin over treatment instead Until people realise that this is a rational and sensical decision there won't be any solutions for these problems and these cases. The US drug "treatment" / "rehab" industry is notoriously awful and is dominated by pseudo-religious ideologues obsessed with abstinence (to the point that "cult" is often an accurate, non-hyperbolic term) and whose practices are not based on any medical evidence of what reduces deaths. It's a fucked up industry that loves to use degradation, isolation, and humiliation on its "patients", loves to make people withdraw suddenly from their drug use and force them to endure the withdrawal symptoms, and isn't even particularly good at helping people not die from heroin/opioid use. Given the current state of the rehab industry, and given how ineffective the "treatments" it offers are, it can alas be a rational decision to avoid it. here's some reading that is relevant: https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/04/the-irrationality-of-alcoholics-anonymous/386255/ https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/04/the-irr... http://theinfluence.org/the-rehab-industry-badly-needs-to-clean-up-its-act-heres-how/ http://theinfluence.org/the-rehab-industry-badly-needs-to-cl... http://www.salon.com/2012/08/28/do_12_step_programs_lead_to_cults/ http://www.salon.com/2012/08/28/do_12_step_programs_lead_to_... http://projects.huffingtonpost.com/dying-to-be-free-heroin-treatment?ncid=tweetlnkushpmg00000067 http://projects.huffingtonpost.com/dying-to-be-free-heroin-t...

Sunset 10y ago
So why give them the choice in the first place?
- koverstreet 10y ago
  So the rehab industry is shit, and your response is literally "make people go through it anyways"?
  - Sunset 10y ago
    Well give them an option. Cold turkey in isolation block in jail or rehab. Guess which they'll pick.

Sunset 10y ago

Why not? Make "having taken these drugs in the past and tested positive for them in your system" a crime. Then just systematically lock all addicts up and ship them off to freshly constructed prisons in Alaska.

projektir 10y ago
Um, Poe's law?